Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Here's another Maggie quote that's pertinent for Theresa May:
"If you walk in the middle of the road, you get hit by cars on both sides"
Asia Bibi family being hunted 'house to house' in Pakistan
Supporters appeal for family to be given asylum in Europe or north America
Harriet Sherwood Religion correspondent
@harrietsherwood
Wed 21 Nov 2018 16.14 GMT Last modified on Wed 21 Nov 2018 20.05 GMT
dosent sound very protective to me
Supporters appeal for family to be given asylum in Europe or north America
Harriet Sherwood Religion correspondent
@harrietsherwood
Wed 21 Nov 2018 16.14 GMT Last modified on Wed 21 Nov 2018 20.05 GMT
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A protest in Lahore last week against the release of Asia Bibi. Photograph: Rahat Dar/EPA
The family of Asia Bibi, the Christian woman who spent eight years on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy before being acquitted three weeks ago, claim they are being hunted by extremists going house to house with their photographs to try to track them down.
Bibi’s family have been in hiding since her acquittal by the country’s supreme court. She is in protective custody as part of a deal between the government and a hardline Islamic party, under which violent protests were called off while a review of the court ruling was undertaken.
Bibi’s lawyer, relatives and supporters have appealed for the family to be given asylum in a European or north American country. Several countries have indicated their willingness to offer a home, but nothing concrete has emerged.
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John Pontifex, of Aid to the Church in Need UK (ACN), which has campaigned on Bibi’s behalf since she was convicted and sentenced to death in 2010, said he had been in almost daily contact with her family over the past three weeks and they were very frightened.
“They have told me that mullahs had been reported in their neighbourhood going from house to house showing photos of family members on their phones, trying to hunt them down,” he told the Guardian.
“The family have had to move from place to place to avoid detection. Sometimes they can only operate after sundown. They have had to cover their faces when they go out in public. They have had to remove the rosary that hangs from their car rear-view mirror for fear of attack.”
Pontifex said the family’s faith was “sustaining them in this time of acute danger”. He added: “They say that if they are not allowed to find a future outside Pakistan, the fear is that sooner or later something terrible might happen to them.”
Bibi’s lawyer, who fled Pakistan shortly after the court ruling saying his life was in danger, said this week that talks on asylum were under way with several European countries. “I hope the western world is trying to help her,” Saiful Malook told reporters in Frankfurt.
Canada, Spain and France are thought to have offered asylum to Bibi. Germany and Italy have reportedly held talks with Pakistan on the issue.
The UK government has declined to answer questions about whether it is considering an offer of asylum, saying it does not want to further endanger Bibi and her family.
The former foreign secretary Boris Johnson and many other MPs and peers have called for the UK government to act. Some reports have suggested that the government fears a backlash among British Muslims of Pakistani heritage if it offers Bibi asylum.
On Tuesday, Sayeeda Warsi told the House of Lords: “There have been press reports that Asia Bibi, if granted asylum in the United Kingdom, would potentially not be safe from some communities here … As someone who is deeply connected to British Muslim communities, I assure her that they are fully supportive of any asylum claim that Asia Bibi may have and that our country may afford her, and that she would be supported as she would be by all other communities in this country.”
The Muslim Council of Britain said in a tweet: “There are unfounded media reports that Pakistani national Asia Bibi is being denied asylum into the UK because of concerns from British Muslims. We find such insinuations to be as nonsensical as they are divisive. We see no reason why Asia Bibi should be denied asylum into the UK.”
After Bibi’s acquittal, Islamic hardliners called for her and the judges in the case to be killed, and they mounted protests that brought cities to a standstill. Pakistan’s prime minister, Imran Khan, has been accused of capitulating to their demands.
Bibi, a farm labourer, was accused by Muslim villagers of insulting the prophet Muhammad in a row over a cup of water. The supreme court judgment said there was no evidence to support the charge.
dosent sound very protective to me
Yes, I agree, May's fatal mistake has been in trying to pander to both sides of the argument in the Tory party. In the end, no one is happy. As Uber said a while back, the outcome that best reflects the 52-48 'will of the people' is Norway. That's where we'll wind up, I reckon.
Does this mean we can invoke Godwin's law and be done with the thread?
What this is describing is a trial run for the real No Deal crash, which some Tory loons, and some on here (I think of them as the enemy within), seem to favour as an outcome.
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Gibraltar. Madrid did not have a formal veto over the withdrawal agreement and political declaration, but the EU would have been Photograph: Jon Nazca/Reuters
Brexit: May gives way over Gibraltar after Spain's 'veto' threat
Spanish prime minister had demanded written assurance as price of support for withdrawal agreement
Daniel Boffey in Brussels and Sam Jones in Madrid
Sat 24 Nov 2018 14.59 GMT Last modified on Sat 24 Nov 2018 22.55 GMT
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- Spanish prime minister threatened to “veto” the Brexit deal due to be signed off by EU leaders on Sunday.
On the eve of Sunday’s special Brexit summit, the British ambassador to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, wrote to concede that Gibraltar would not necessarily be covered by a future trade deal with the EU.
The development gives Spain a veto over Gibraltar benefiting from a future trade and security agreement between Brussels and the British government.
The Spanish leader, Pedro Sánchez, reacted immediately, claiming the UK would now have to open talks on “joint sovereignty” of Gibraltar, over which Spain has had a claim since the military dictatorship of Francisco Franco.
Sánchez said: “Once the UK has left the EU, Gibraltar’s political, legal and even geographic relationship with the EU will go through Spain …
“Spain will be a fundamental pillar of the relationship between Gibraltar and the EU as a whole.
“When it comes to the future political declaration, the European council and the European commission have backed Spain’s position, and backed it as never before.
Gibraltar puts the UK between a Rock and a hard place on Brexit | John Crace
“In these fundamental future negotiations, we’re going to have to talk about joint sovereignty and many other things with the UK.”
The 27 EU member states are set to publish a further statement in solidarity with Spain at the summit, according to a leaked document seen by the Guardian.
“After the United Kingdom leaves the union, Gibraltar will not be included in the territorial scope of the agreements to be concluded between the union and the United Kingdom,” the EU will say.
In the statement, the EU will go on to warn that any separate deal to protect Gibraltar’s economy will “require a prior agreement of the Kingdom of Spain”.
The news was met with anger by politicians across the political spectrum. The Liberal Democrat’s Brexit spokesman, Tom Brake MP, said: “The prime minister has caved in once again. In a desperate bid to get her disastrous deal across the line, May appears to have cast the people of Gibraltar aside.
“She has conceded that Gibraltar won’t necessarily be covered by a future trade deal, simply another example of why what she has negotiated is completely unacceptable. She has left the status of Gibraltar in jeopardy.
“This is a day of shame. The only way to sort out this chaos would be through a People’s Vote, with the option to remain in the EU”.
Labour’s MEP for Gibraltar, Clare Moody, said: “What is remarkable is that Theresa May has gone to Brussels to concede further text at this stage, before we’ve even left.”
The Conservative MP, Andrew Bridgen, said: “It appears that there is no-one the prime minister will not betray to achieve her sell-out deal”.
Amid the growing outcry over the concession, the prime minister, insisted that nothing had changed over the UK’s territorial claim to Gibraltar, as she visited Brussels on Saturday night for meetings with EU officials, including European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker.
May also dismissed claims from Spain’s foreign minister that the agreement on the Rock had been a victory for Madrid delivering a treaty that was “the most important one since the Utrecht Treaty of 1713”, which had handed the territory to the British.
May said: “The UK’s position on the sovereignty of Gibraltar has never changed and will not change.
“I’m proud Gibraltar is British and I will always stand by Gibraltar. The UK’s position on Gibraltar has not changed and will not change.
“We have negotiated on behalf of Gibraltar, they are covered by the whole withdrawal agreement and by the implementation period. In the future we will continue to negotiate on behalf of the whole UK family and that includes Gibraltar. I’m proud Gibraltar is British I will always stand by Gibraltar.”
The move does, however, resolve the final outstanding issue in the Brexit negotiations. Donald Tusk, the European council president, sent a letter of invitation to Sunday’s summit to all the leaders on Saturday afternoon.
Tusk wrote: “During these negotiations, no one wanted to defeat anyone. We were all looking for a good and fair agreement. And I believe that we have finally found the best possible compromise.
“Given all of the above, I will recommend that on Sunday we approve the outcome of the Brexit negotiations. And although no one will have reasons to be happy on that day, there is one thing I would like to stress: at this critical time, the EU27 has passed the test of unity and solidarity.”
The development threatens, however, to open up a new front in Downing Street’s battle with the critics of May’s deal.
Sánchez had demanded a written assurance as the price for his support for the withdrawal agreement and accompanying political declaration on the future relationship.
Quick Guide
The European Union withdrawal agreement bill
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What is the withdrawal and implementation bill?
Officially known as the European Union (withdrawal agreement) bill, this will be the primary piece of legislation to enact the agreement the UK secures to leave the EU, and the ensuing transition period.
What will it cover?
That depends on what the final deal is. A white paper published on Tuesday mainly takes in areas already dealt with by the initial agreement with the EU – reciprocal citizens’ rights, the transition period, and the divorce bill.
When will the bill be introduced?
Only after parliament has approved the deal negotiated with the EU. It must then be passed before 29 March 2019, so the withdrawal agreement has legal effect.
What did we learn from the white paper?
Dominic Raab, the new Brexit secretary, reiterated his warning the UK could withhold the £39bn final settlement if the EU fails to agree a trade deal. He also said there would be “no wholesale removal of rights of EU nationals” if there was no deal. He also said the implementation bill would reinstate parts of the European Communities Act – which first took the UK into the then common market – which is being repealed by the EU Withdrawal Act, so EU law can still apply during the transition.
Spain does not have a formal veto over the 585-page withdrawal agreement and the 26-page joint declaration by the leaders, but the EU would have been unlikely to go ahead with the summit without Madrid’s support.
The prime minister had promised in the House of Commons and on the steps of Downing Street that she would work for the entire “UK family”, including Gibraltar – a disputed territory.
Spain has always insisted that Gibraltar could only be covered by any agreements struck between the EU and the UK with Madrid’s consent.
A bilateral agreement on tax evasion, police cooperation and tobacco smuggling had persuaded Spain that Gibraltar could be covered by the 21-month transition period after Brexit, during which the UK would stay in the single market and customs union without representation in EU decision-making institutions.
Spain was furious when an article in the withdrawal agreement appeared to suggest that any future trade deal would cover Gibraltar. Downing Street was accused of “acting under the cover of darkness” in inserting the clause.
The letter from the British ambassador to the European council laid down Downing Street’s understanding that article 184 in the withdrawal agreement “imposes no obligations regarding the territorial scope” of a future trade deal.
A separate letter made public on Saturday, from Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, and Tusk, said the two EU leaders wanted to “underline our solidarity with the Kingdom of Spain on this matter”.
Tusk spoke to Sánchez on Saturday afternoon to ensure that he was content.
When asked if this was a British climbdown, a UK government spokesman said: “No. This is the same position as for the first phase of the negotiations. We will negotiate outcomes which work for the EU and the whole of the UK family.”
EU citizens!
More bad news for Brexit Britain.
There will be no fish and chips.
Due to the hard border with Ireland, you will get no potatoes.
All the fish will swim to EU waters to avoid racism.
Combined with the cheese famine, the UK will starve.
More bad news for Brexit Britain.
There will be no fish and chips.
Due to the hard border with Ireland, you will get no potatoes.
All the fish will swim to EU waters to avoid racism.
Combined with the cheese famine, the UK will starve.
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Of course there is. Don't talk nonsense.
It's just that those controlling the situation don't want us to succeed with a clean Brexit.
It's remain in all but name.
But with a worse deal.
It's the will of the people, Col (52-48 remember, not 100-0). Suck it up and let's agree on Norway (which you said you would during the campaign, I recall).
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My brain is exploding with all the permutations. Is this deal actually worse than Norway? I thought we get things they don't.
Bloody hell I decided to listen to a radio phone in and I was amazed how the 'Dieharders' are trying every trick in the book. here are two examples
1. We should have a peoples vote with 'May deal' or 'remain'?
My answer, how about a vote 'Mays' or 'no deal' or 'Canada style'? The leave/remain bit was done.
2. They lied to us... they said it would be easy to make a deal so it should go back to the people?
My Answer, Actually we cannot make a deal until we have left.
It was actually refreshing to here 2 or 3 callers saying they voted remain but would vote leave now.
1. We should have a peoples vote with 'May deal' or 'remain'?
My answer, how about a vote 'Mays' or 'no deal' or 'Canada style'? The leave/remain bit was done.
2. They lied to us... they said it would be easy to make a deal so it should go back to the people?
My Answer, Actually we cannot make a deal until we have left.
It was actually refreshing to here 2 or 3 callers saying they voted remain but would vote leave now.
Deal is worse than Norway. Norway on the whole, isn't a bad arrangement however it contains freedom of movement which some won't accept.
For me it should be a Canada type deal or WTO. Sooner we get out of this 'club' the better. I am fed up with crap countries who are worth about £5 telling us what we can and can't do. Just have a look at some of the EU countries and how they can't even balance the books. No wonder the Austrian Premier said of us leaving was like "losing 19 countries" . I would say more like 23.
Norway is better for trade, I think, but we would still have free movement because we would still be in the Single Market (a good thing in my opinion). Given that no one should expect everything they wanted (and that's where the problem lies I think - every Leave voter seems to think that they should be entitled to their own preferred outcome), Norway should be acceptable to a majority. The will of the people should mean all of the people, not just 52% of those that voted.
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You have changed your tune .. You wanted a peoples vote not long ago. Although I can agree with some of what you said.
You have changed your tune .. You wanted a peoples vote not long ago. Although I can agree with some of what you said.
I still want a new vote, I'm just trying to think pragmatically.
Is it **** the will of the people!!!
It's the will of the ruling elite and unelected twats who run downing street.