Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

Snap! I saw the interview too. A second referendum could only ever be contemplated if there is strong evidence from polls that there was a massive move of former Leavers to Remain. There just is not. There is every evidence that people are where they were two years ago.

Spot on Goldie
Absolutely no point in another vote.
On another note
I think the cracks in the EU are not being highlighted enough. Spain and France we know about but other states are not happy with the deal and believe we are getting too much of a good deal. Do you think it could be the EU states that ruin the deal or do you believe they will be bullied into it by Germany?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Spot on Goldie
Absolutely no point in another vote.
On another note
I think the cracks in the EU are not being highlighted enough. Spain and France we know about but other states are not happy with the deal and believe we are getting too much of a good deal. Do you think it could be the EU states that ruin the deal or do you believe they will be bullied into it by Germany?

I think Brussels and Germany will bully them into it. May must know when she goes to Brussels today that she has to get more concessions on the indefinite backstop because at present it looks like she won't get the deal through Parliament. If that happened, I'm sure more letters of no confidence would go in, and if there were over 100 against her in the subsequent Tory internal vote, she would be advised by her Cabinet and other senior Tories to step aside (like Thatcher), and then there would be an expedited leadership contest, and probably a Leave Tory appointed (my money would be on Raab)

 

[ELLERS]

Talk about traitors from within what a stupid woman! May is in Brussels to get a good deal for our country and she has give the other side an advantage!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...o-deal-brexit-contradicting-may-politics-live

 

[ELLERS]

I think Brussels and Germany will bully them into it. May must know when she goes to Brussels today that she has to get more concessions on the indefinite backstop because at present it looks like she won't get the deal through Parliament. If that happened, I'm sure more letters of no confidence would go in, and if there were over 100 against her in the subsequent Tory internal vote, she would be advised by her Cabinet and other senior Tories to step aside (like Thatcher), and then there would be an expedited leadership contest, and probably a Leave Tory appointed (my money would be on Raab)

Not sure about Raab I reckon it could be someone like Sajid Javid. I notice some are playing politics with the vote. Not good not putting your country first. I think we all agree that if the people don't get a Brexit then things will change for the worse in this country.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Not sure about Raab I reckon it could be someone like Sajid Javid. I notice some are playing politics with the vote. Not good not putting your country first. I think we all agree that if the people don't get a Brexit then things will change for the worse in this country.

Yes, Javid would be a good choice. He's a Remainer but has taken to Leave in a way that May has not really done. If the Chequers deal is rejected and the EU won't help May out, we may be heading for a managed "no-deal" ie done in coordination with the EU. That may get enough votes for Parliament to approve it but it will be tight

 

[Staines R's]

I respect the fact that it wasn't the main motivation for you, Col, but I do strongly believe that it was the biggest consideration for the majority of Leave voters.

That’s just your opinion Stroller.
Like Cols, it certainly wasn’t mine.

 

[bobmid]

In all honesty I don't think there should be a 2nd referendum either. The first was a complete shambles so why would anyone trust a 2nd? Infact how anyone anywhere can trust politicians is beyond me!!

 

[ELLERS]

That’s just your opinion Stroller.
Like Cols, it certainly wasn’t mine.

Or mine.

 

[ELLERS]

In all honesty I don't think there should be a 2nd referendum either. The first was a complete shambles so why would anyone trust a 2nd? Infact how anyone anywhere can trust politicians is beyond me!!

If we don't have a democratic elected representative what do you suggest? However, I think you are spot on with another vote. If the country is not divided enough already, another vote would make it toxic

 

[Stroller]

That’s just your opinion Stroller.
Like Cols, it certainly wasn’t mine.

Or mine.

Fair enough, that's three then. I have only ever said 'most', not everybody. Goldie seems to agree that immigration was probably the biggest factor and so does Turkish. Pretty much all Leave voters that I have spoken to directly either said that their own motivation for doing so was immigration, or, if it wasn't for them, agreed that it most likely was for the majority of others.

 

[Staines R's]

Fair enough, that's three then. I have only ever said 'most', not everybody. Goldie seems to agree that immigration was probably the biggest factor and so does Turkish. Pretty much all Leave voters that I have spoken to directly either said that their own motivation for doing so was immigration, or, if it wasn't for them, agreed that it most likely was for the majority of others.

But then again most of the people I’ve spoken to have said immigration wasn’t on their mind when they voted to leave (though not all I admit).
It might just be because of the racist, anti immigrant type of people you hang about with

(To clarify, the last sentence WAS a joke)

 

[ELLERS]

Fair enough, that's three then. I have only ever said 'most', not everybody. Goldie seems to agree that immigration was probably the biggest factor and so does Turkish. Pretty much all Leave voters that I have spoken to directly either said that their own motivation for doing so was immigration, or, if it wasn't for them, agreed that it most likely was for the majority of others.

To be fair to Stroller Where I live wasn't hugely affected by immigration but I know that in other parts of the country people thought immigration was the problem.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

If it was that easy to control immigration, Cameron would have done it.

This is an assumption, of course. You wrote very eloquently in your previous post about how Blair made a choice not to exercise controls over immigration. Cameron also made a decision not to apply the full force of EU law, which allows host countries to send anyone without a job back to their country of origin. Why those decision were made is up for debate, but my inkling is that both thought that immigration is a fundamental good and positive for the UK economy.

Agree entirely re a second referendum being pointless at the moment. As I've posted previously, if polls were showing remain 65%+ ahead, the perhaps justified, but they're not, so can't see the justification myself.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

This is an assumption, of course. You wrote very eloquently in your previous post about how Blair made a choice not to exercise controls over immigration. Cameron also made a decision not to apply the full force of EU law, which allows host countries to send anyone without a job back to their country of origin. Why those decision were made is up for debate, but my inkling is that both thought that immigration is a fundamental good and positive for the UK economy.

Agree entirely re a second referendum being pointless at the moment. As I've posted previously, if polls were showing remain 65%+ ahead, the perhaps justified, but they're not, so can't see the justification myself.

Yes, fair comment. Cameron was asking for specific matters like stopping immigrants sending child benefits back home (which Eastern European members subsequently objected to), but there doesn't appear to have been anything sought generally that was central to free movement, which may, as you say, have been because Cameron saw it as benefiting the economy. We might be able to adjust EU free movement about the edges, as Johnson and Clarke say, but it will never be as satisfactory for Leave voters imo, as having our own immigration policy based on specific need.

 

[ELLERS]

Yes, fair comment. Cameron was asking for specific matters like stopping immigrants sending child benefits back home (which Eastern European members subsequently objected to), but I don't think there was anything sought that was central to free movement, which may, as you say, have been because Cameron saw it as benefiting the economy. We might be able to adjust EU free movement about the edges, as Johnson and Clarke say, but it will never be as satisfactory for Leave voters imo, as having our own immigration policy based on specific need.

If the Tories don't bring down the number of immigrants then I also see a backlash at the next election. I like the talking of bringing in specialists workers as they will benefit the economy. I do however understand that there are lots of other jobs that will need filling and hopefully we should be able to from within.

 

[ELLERS]

Jezza started off okay in PMQs today. He had some good quips and some interesting points but as usual, he faded into nothing again. At times he sounded as if he didn't actually know what he was talking about.

 

[bobmid]

Jezza started off okay in PMQs today. He had some good quips and some interesting points but as usual, he faded into nothing again. At times he sounded as if he didn't actually know what he was talking about.

I think that cover just about everyone in parliment! Has uk politics ever been as bad?!

 

[ELLERS]

I think that cover just about everyone in parliment! Has uk politics ever been as bad?!

I cannot remember so many splits tbh but we are living in different times. However, it is the way that the country runs... otherwise we are left with anarchy.
When you look at it...let's say roughly there is a 50/50 split on leaving the EU, that should tell us that something is fundamentally wrong.

When you look at France/Italy/Austria/Germany/Greece/Ireland and basically the rest of the EU countries, you can see that the whole thing is being held together with cotton.

Take Italy (which many are not talking about on here). Today the EU is threatening them over their reforms.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/21/eu-opens-disciplinary-procedures-against-italy.html
If the EU play this wrong and Italy drop out, the whole thing will collapse.

Too many far-right groups popping up in France/Germany/Sweden/Austria. Most of these problems are being caused by the EU.

I have said this many times before if the EU could have reformed then I probably would have voted remain but sadly they can't/won't. The negotiations have shown us this.
I am not blaming the EU for everything but there would never have been this split in the UK if it wasn't for them.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Every person proclaiming that Immigration was not the main or even any part of the reason for the way they voted does not prove in any way what the motivation was for all 17.4 million. Unless of course they are all members of your family and they have each told you the reasons why they voted to leave YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THEM.

For that you have to make your mind up and come to a view based on the evidence you've seen and heard. Most would base their view on what was said by certain campaigners and what was said in snap shot interviews with individual members of the public up and down the country at the time. Also some of the deplorable behaviour by individuals on the leave side

during the campaign​

, some of the things they said on programs like QT and some of the appalling behaviour targeted against the Polish community in West London in the aftermath of the vote.

We've been through this time and again. None of you save for Goldie, will concede that for some voters Immigration was the main, if not the only reason. Many of those constituencies that voted to leave have large immigrant problems communities, higher levels of unemployment but factories and farms full of European migrants and accepting the NMW rates of pay which unskilled jobs like that command. Jobs the local population won't do.

It is the same for the Labour Party and anti-Semitism. Nobody will admit that there is a problem and all you ever get back is a collective "very how dare you even suggest there is". I look at the evidence available and form a judgment. Until someone proves to me that it is all a series of unconnected lies and a dishonest spin on perfectly acceptable reasons for those who are jewish receiving less favourable treatment and harassment, I accept there is a strong anti-Semitic element in the Labour party.

For the avoidance of doubt, I voted to Remain and am not Jewish.

 

[DT’s Socks]

A second vote maybe bad I agree but again maybe necessary if a no deal looks on

Plus the people’s if Scotland and Northern Ireland must have the option to opt out that has to democracy imo they both voted remain very clearly if I was them I would cut all ties with the UK