Young people are not the problem. It's the older ones who are in power and can groom them. When Yugoslavia fell apart, the young did the killing and mass slaughter of their enemies on all sides because their parents and grand parents started to dig up mass graves and rekindle ethnic and religious divisions They may not have been groomed for sexual exploitation or to be Jihadis although there is certainly an element of that in Muslim Bosnia which sadly was imported when they opened the door to the Mujahideen or freedom fighters as the Americans used to call them. Unless there are at least 2-3 generations of peaceful co-existence, the young will grow up and take their moral truths from their parents and grand-parents who will regale them of the atrocities and indignities they suffered. Arlene Foster herself is a classic example and victim of those times whose outlook on the world is completely outdated and shaped by what she saw and learned as a child. It only ended 25 years ago so no. It's not long enough. One death or outrage prompted by the reintroduction of a hard border may well be sufficient to kick -start another sectarian war especially if both communities are impoverished as a result of an effective solution not being found because in the DUP's eyes, no difference in treatment can even be considered between Ulster and the rest of the UK.
Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Except in relation to Ian Holloway when the two of you could have been breast fed by the same bosom.
Ha that much is true. The guy knows his football!!Except in relation to Ian Holloway when the two of you could have been breast fed by the same bosom.
I have a question. They need 48 letters expressing No Confidence In May before they can trigger a leadership election. Apparently coming in thick and fast. The spokesman said they had over 60 in the bag. He has now admitted that it was in fact only 48 with at least 12 more committed to doing so Yet at the last count by the 1922 committee of letters received as opposed to supportive noises, they've only got 21 so far. Even by the rules of the strange world of Westminster something does not quite add up.
Go on then, that does raise a few more questions:
1 Is the spokesman telling porkies?
2 Can the spokesman not add up?
3 Does he not understand fractions and percentages
4 What are they waiting for?
5 Visits home at the weekend. Does it really require consultation with their constituents for them to make up their minds?
6 Are they unable to write a two line letter?
7 If they are not, is there not a template they could use?
8 Do they know how to sign a letter?
9 Do they know how to send an email or attach a document?
10 If JRM cannot gauge the mood of his colleagues and manages to get it spectacularly wrong now, what confidence can any sane person have that he has what it takes to be the future leader and saviour of this country?
11 Would they not have been better off taking lessons from football club boardrooms and giving her a resounding vote of confidence? That always seems to work in signalling the demise of football club managers.
12 What chance then of one of them forcing through a Hard Brexit (if given the opportunity to try) when they are struggling to get the numbers to even force the leadership election.
All this reminded me of a former colleague who stood for election for the Lib Dems three times. Each time he was convinced he was going to win and came a resounding 3rd or 4th instead. My two best friends at the time had both been his pupils and went out canvassing with him. He had a great optimistic spirit and sense of humour. It all fell into place when the three of them told us of one occasion when they had knocked on the door in a block of council flats, asked if they could rly on their support to have door promptly slammed in their faces. He told them that he would put that potential voter down as a Maybe.
He never did make it to Westminster
Lucky no.13 Who are the people going to vote out of Strictly tomorrow night?
Go on then, that does raise a few more questions:
1 Is the spokesman telling porkies?
2 Can the spokesman not add up?
3 Does he not understand fractions and percentages
4 What are they waiting for?
5 Visits home at the weekend. Does it really require consultation with their constituents for them to make up their minds?
6 Are they unable to write a two line letter?
7 If they are not, is there not a template they could use?
8 Do they know how to sign a letter?
9 Do they know how to send an email or attach a document?
10 If JRM cannot gauge the mood of his colleagues and manages to get it spectacularly wrong now, what confidence can any sane person have that he has what it takes to be the future leader and saviour of this country?
11 Would they not have been better off taking lessons from football club boardrooms and giving her a resounding vote of confidence? That always seems to work in signalling the demise of football club managers.
12 What chance then of one of them forcing through a Hard Brexit (if given the opportunity to try) when they are struggling to get the numbers to even force the leadership election.
All this reminded me of a former colleague who stood for election for the Lib Dems three times. Each time he was convinced he was going to win and came a resounding 3rd or 4th instead. My two best friends at the time had both been his pupils and went out canvassing with him. He had a great optimistic spirit and sense of humour. It all fell into place when the three of them told us of one occasion when they had knocked on the door in a block of council flats, asked if they could rly on their support to have door promptly slammed in their faces. He told them that he would put that potential voter down as a Maybe.
He never did make it to Westminster
Lucky no.13 Who are the people going to vote out of Strictly tomorrow night?
Rubbish re Germany/France that is just a English point of view it doesn’t exist anywhere from inside the EU. I repeat that is just brainwashed view of the British ... it’s been oversold to a point that within British culture it has become a false fact
The UK’s political record inside the EU has been very poor imo and yet they choose to blame anyone else I say again have a real hard look at the culture: somehow the entire issue of immigration has been parked and blamed on the EU yet more people flow into the UK from outside the EU
Brussels is a family of 27 countries yet the Germans and French are blamed any guesses why the British can easily do that ... history and the simple fact that both of those countries have developed and become a lot more successful while the UK has declined
The UK believes it’s far better than most doesn’t give a flying **** about Ireland NI Wales or Scotland and continues to dismiss other countries within the EU even thinking that after Brexit the thing will collapse... why should Brexiteers even care about that? ... blind UK pride I told you so attitude.
Yet the UK is divided can we agree that now ?
Half the Nation loves the EU and believes in it
So what do Brexiteers do post Brexit
They have no idea and no solution
Anyone beginning to see exactly what the UK is yet?
Who is the ‘spokesman’? If it’s anyone other than Graham Brady, Chair of the 1922 Committee, it’s bullshit propaganda trying to spur on waverers to sign up for certain defeat and humiliation.
Notable names not on the list - Johnson B, Davis D, Johnson J, Raab D, McVey E.
Looking more and more like the coup has failed miserably. Focus will turn to the vote in Parliament. Fascinating to see if the ERG backtrack at all when they realise they risk losing Brexit altogether.
Funnily enough, I think Gove may prove to be one of the few people to come through this mess with his reputation enhanced.
Stuck to his long term principle to campaign to leave the EU despite immense pressure from Cameron to do otherwise; sensible enough to realise that delivering Brexit will require compromise, else risk losing Brexit altogether; and unwilling to take a more high profile cabinet role if he didn't feel he could do it with integrity (in stark contrast to Raab). Best of all, Gove knew that Boris wasn't up for the job and we all know what happened there...
I don't agree with him at all, but I still broadly respect his actions, which I think have been consistent, pragmatic and more in the public interest than many.
Stuck to his long term principle to campaign to leave the EU despite immense pressure from Cameron to do otherwise; sensible enough to realise that delivering Brexit will require compromise, else risk losing Brexit altogether; and unwilling to take a more high profile cabinet role if he didn't feel he could do it with integrity (in stark contrast to Raab). Best of all, Gove knew that Boris wasn't up for the job and we all know what happened there...
I don't agree with him at all, but I still broadly respect his actions, which I think have been consistent, pragmatic and more in the public interest than many.
Absolutely, it takes nothing to stir the hatred as we have often seen over the years, just look at this historic photo and you can sense the injustice and persecution that fuelled the worst of it, just a common day-to-day scene at the time but an indicator that people who lived through that in our lifetime will never forget. Our politicians have a duty not to allow such obvious division to re-occur...
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Good question . I've looked again. It's from a daily blog run by the Independent and reported /updated with each new post, quote. interview clip etc which appears on the MSN browser. It closed some 2 hours ago for the day and is consistent with what you said that only 20 public declarations /letters have been received to date by Sir Graham Brady so presumably he is the source. There was one more but that may have been deleted since I looked at 5.pm . Given that many of those who did, have publicised that they have done so with a heavy heart.blah blah, the rest are keeping their powder dry for now. Don't you just love brave politicians who vote with conviction and take pride in their decisions rather then just sit on the fence making all the right noises and sniffing the air to see in which particular direction their own self-aggrandisement lies. Clearly they haven't given up all hope yet of a more comfortable seat and tenure on the front bench for many years to come. Or they truly are old school and wait for their PA's return on Monday morning to type it up. because they don't know how to do it themselves. What is in the best interest of the country? We all believe we know. However I can see it must be a hard one to call clearly if you are waiting for others to jump first in large enough numbers to guide you or enough of a promise or threat from either side to buy your vote.
Totally shameful. Perhaps House of Cards is not fictional but reality tv after all. Perhaps we're just waiting for a season finale and the script writers to come up with a neat solution to write out the main character/ baddy while an array of possible suspects are given time to see how what effect they have on the ratings.
What makes this version slightly less captivating is the absence of any dirt yet. I'm sure that will come.
A few weeks ago Brady said that he had heard some MPs tell their colleagues media that they had sent in letters of no confidence when they hadn’t. Which seems par for the course with thes emendacious ****ers. He actually seemed pretty disgusted with it himself.
Re the dirt, we will have to wait and see if Johnson B ever gets to contest a general election as party leader for that. Filth will flow in all directions.
D
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I have friends who work in his department. They said when it was announced he was staying there was massive relief - none of them ever thought they would see the day they felt like that! Been one of the strangest weeks I can remember in Whitehall and I've been there 30 years
The bottom line is they're all politicians, so lying comes naturally. Faced with Corbyn in Downing Street I doubt very much whether they'll reach 48.
I read recently that if the Tories are defeated in the vote and May quits a number of Labour MPs that hate Corbyn as much as the Tories may back a new coalition with the Tories and Lib Dems which would limp on until 2022. It really is an unholy mess...
A centre Tory, sane Labour, Lib Dem coalition sounds fine to me, much better than Tory-DUP, or Corbyn Labour -SNP. I don’t think any of the possible components has the necessary leadership or guts to make it happen though.
Here we are however all trying to rack our brains on what political system the UK now needs
New appointments this week that no one really knew or knows
Vote of confidence in what the UK is currently doing I believe would be a better way of putting it imo ... yet I am a country hater? ... just as guilty and infected with the blame culture
Hoping a real change and shake up the country needs. I still believe all this theatre is constructed to undo or attempt to reset the public to the ways things were
Generally it’s growing the remainers are on the streets whereas the Brexiteers aren’t. Convinced that now more is know people and public opinion will change simply because they realise that after the idea of Brexit there is no plan
Stock check would anyone trust this current lot to run a new UK based on what we have seen?
50 years or more of bullshit and no action has got us here while Europeans have grown and reinvented themselves
Yes we will still buy German cars or French lorries
Yes they need our shop
I don't think the Tory rebels necessarily want to get rid of May. They want leverage to control her and get her to renegotiate bad parts of the draft deal, in particular the fact that the EU will have power to bind Parliament's hands and keep the UK in the Customs Union in perpetuity. If a vote of no confidence is a real prospect, May will face this pressure from outside, and she now has a cabal of 5 ministers (Gove, Leadsom, Fox, Mordaunt and Grayling) that will bring pressure from within the Cabinet.
May was deluded in bringing the 2017 general election. She is deluded if she thinks she can get this bad draft deal through Parliament. If she can be persuaded to make necessary changes, I think, faced with no deal, the EU would come back to the table on specific sticking points.
If she won't bend, I think the Rebels may put their weight behind Raab if he is agreeable.
Why exactly would the EU renegotiate with this mob, whoever is the leader? It’s taken them 2.5 years to get to somewhere they can’t deliver on? Raab couldn’t even influence an agreement that he was meant to be negotiating, he’s useless.
If the Tories has any sense they would get behind May on the Withdrawal Agreement and go hell for leather for what they want in the important negotiation still to come, the long term relationship. They are complaining about **** that will never happen in the backstop if they have confidence that we can get a decent trade deal. As it stands they risk letting a Corbyn/Strugeon alliance do that one, which means permanently in the Customs Union and probably in the Single Market. Focusing on the minute world of Tory Westminster will screw them all. Excellent, though the alternative is terrifying.