Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Goldhawk-Road]

You seem knowledgeable on the WTO stuff Goldie, could we, if we wanted, just say we will impose no tariffs on any imports from anywhere (assuming we will still want to have some kind of minimum quality and safety standards for stuff, of course). How does WTO relate to services, if at all?

Yes, a trade treaty would need to be ratified by all.

I'm beginning to take an interest in it. Yes, we can impose no tariffs - under WTO we have to be even handed. We can't hand an advantage to one WTO country eg Ireland. The downside is obviously that it would be big competition for UK producers, agricultural and the like. But as I say, good for consumers.

WTO applies to services through GATS (General Agreement on Trade in Services). I don't know enough yet to evaluate it, but it will surely be coming to the fore in the press over the rest of the summer.

 

[Staines R's]

Democracy isn’t a one time thing, just because some people got the result they wanted. If it’s clear (and it is) that the British piblic are now in favour of remaining, to ignore that and simply say that they made a choice 2 years ago is the opposite of the true, self-governing democracy that Leavers say they want.

Unless, of course, Remain have been right all along, and you don’t KNOW what you want?

Where is it clear that ‘the british public are now in favour of remaining’ ?

Are you making things up again Wills ?

 

[sb_73]

At last, I have found the root of our problems.

Yesterday the cabinet met in Gateshead.

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Anybody who has ever attended a meeting of any kind (business, local community, club whatever) will immediately know that zero meaningful discussion and collective decision making can take place with that number of people sitting in that arrangement. I wonder how they spend their time.

 

[West London Willy]

There’s no ‘again’. And I’m not making it up.

Loads of polls have been taken over the past year - many of them linked to in this thread. Go look, don’t just assume that everything is the same as two years ago.

Do some research before you start up with that bullshit personal stuff again.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

We'll agree to differ. The EU bullies and threatens every country that tries to leave it. JRM's description of them as mafia is about right. That's why I see the WTO preparation as vital. For every EU supporter like yourself, there is at least one (and probably more) UK citizen that has an increasingly visceral hatred of the EU, particularly Brussels lead by that drunkard Junckers and "the Monster" Selmayr. How the EU reacts in the next months will determine just how deep that animosity among UK leavers will go.

Can we just promise them each a crate of Old Speckled Hen and call it a day?

 

[West London Willy]

I think Goldie took my post in the spirit in which it was intended.

As an increasingly disillusioned remainer, I wish vocal remainers would stop whining quite so much and accept some responsibility for the way the vote went. Clarke, Soubry, Cable, Blair, Campbell, Milliband D, etc all those smug talking heads are really doing a **** job.

I call myself a vocal Remainer, and bear no responsibility for the current mess at all. The responsible people are those who voted to leave, forcing people to start negotiating for a situation nobody understands, or can agree on, and which the negotiators on both sides clearly don’t want.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

It only has to be hammered out by October if we're to leave in an orderly fashion (which of course, is desirable) . If the EU keeps demanding that we "capitulate", then there will be no deal, so the transition arrangement doesn't apply, we go onto WTO terms next March and the border with Ireland stays as it is. If the EU want to erect a hard border, then let them negotiate that with Ireland. We keep £39bn and no doubt the EU will want to open discussions about that post-March.

I don't think extending the transition period will go down well with the electorate here, unless for a very short period of time. WTO does look increasingly likely because the EU is already making noises that any agreed deal might not get through all 27 member states, or, if it does, the European Parliament which has to approve it. Raab needs to push no-deal right up his agenda.

Interesting take - they want capitulation? Haven't seen any sign of that yet from Barnier et al. Problem is they know what their red lines are - we haven't a clue.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

The can will be kicked as far down the road as possible. It’s in no one’s genuine interest to see a no deal Brexit happen and every meaningful politician on every side knows that.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

At last, I have found the root of our problems.

Yesterday the cabinet met in Gateshead.

You must log in or register to see images

Anybody who has ever attended a meeting of any kind (business, local community, club whatever) will immediately know that zero meaningful discussion and collective decision making can take place with that number of people sitting in that arrangement. I wonder how they spend their time.

I hope they paid handsomely for that. The Sage is struggling financially because of Government cuts and then it gets taken over for a photo opportunity by a bunch of people as far detached from ordinary folk as you could ever find.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I call myself a vocal Remainer, and bear no responsibility for the current mess at all. The responsible people are those who voted to leave, forcing people to start negotiating for a situation nobody understands, or can agree on, and which the negotiators on both sides clearly don’t want.

I seem to recall there being a General Election since the Brexit vote. Despite some parties and/or politicians being Remainers, I don’t recall seeing the voting population electing somebody to overturn this “mess”.

I didn’t vote in the GE because I didn’t have faith in any of the lot presented to me.

 

[sb_73]

I call myself a vocal Remainer, and bear no responsibility for the current mess at all. The responsible people are those who voted to leave, forcing people to start negotiating for a situation nobody understands, or can agree on, and which the negotiators on both sides clearly don’t want.

Well, it’s attitudes like that which make me understand why many people wanted to give the complacent, self interested comfortable classes a kick up the arse. I feel my arse has been well and truly thumped, my problem is I don’t have a clue what I can do to make people not want to kick it again, other than keep my mouth shut for a bit and accept that where we are now is at least partly my fault. We ignored people who were suffering, the EU is just a proxy for them to remind us that this is no way to run a society.

In my opinion.

 

[West London Willy]

Well, it’s attitudes like that which make me understand why many people wanted to give the complacent, self interested comfortable classes a kick up the arse. I feel my arse has been well and truly thumped, my problem is I don’t have a clue what I can do to make people not want to kick it again, other than keep my mouth shut for a bit and accept that where we are now is at least partly my fault. We ignored people who were suffering, the EU is just a proxy for them to remind us that this is no way to run a society.

In my opinion.

Very different to bearing responsibility mate. Voting to Remain, championing Remain in-line and to friends, then seeing the result go so crazily the other way doesn’t make you responsible. You might feel some guilt at how you considered ( or didn’t consider) others before, but that’s not the same as being responsible for the mess we are now in.

The right response it to be clearer, with demonstrable facts, as to how and why we should proceed.

I still say that staying in the EU is the best thing for the UK. If we MUST leave, then the responsibility for getting the best possible deal (short, medium and long term) sits with the UK team and the EU. ‘No Deal’ must be avoided, because I don’t want to spend the rest of my life and pretty much all my children’s lives dealing with the consequences. Staying quiet won’t help that. In fact, it’ll be taken for quiet acquiescence.

 

[West London Willy]

I seem to recall there being a General Election since the Brexit vote. Despite some parties and/or politicians being Remainers, I don’t recall seeing the voting population electing somebody to overturn this “mess”.

I didn’t vote in the GE because I didn’t have faith in any of the lot presented to me.

The GE was always going to be Labour or Tories. Both were pro Brexit. Nothing else gave any real option. Those that still voted , like me, either voted on other issues, voted against incumbents, or stuck to the same as always. Personally, voted for a centrist pro-EU independent, but if the choice arises I will be voting Renew in future.

 

[West London Willy]

Well, it’s attitudes like that which make me understand why many people wanted to give the complacent, self interested comfortable classes a kick up the arse. I feel my arse has been well and truly thumped, my problem is I don’t have a clue what I can do to make people not want to kick it again, other than keep my mouth shut for a bit and accept that where we are now is at least partly my fault. We ignored people who were suffering, the EU is just a proxy for them to remind us that this is no way to run a society.

In my opinion.

Additional: people didn’t vote to leave because they were suffering. People voted to leave because the campaign pandered to their base emotions and encouraged division.

 

[sb_73]

Very different to bearing responsibility mate. Voting to Remain, championing Remain in-line and to friends, then seeing the result go so crazily the other way doesn’t make you responsible. You might feel some guilt at how you considered ( or didn’t consider) others before, but that’s not the same as being responsible for the mess we are now in.

The right response it to be clearer, with demonstrable facts, as to how and why we should proceed.

I still say that staying in the EU is the best thing for the UK. If we MUST leave, then the responsibility for getting the best possible deal (short, medium and long term) sits with the UK team and the EU. ‘No Deal’ must be avoided, because I don’t want to spend the rest of my life and pretty much all my children’s lives dealing with the consequences. Staying quiet won’t help that. In fact, it’ll be taken for quiet acquiescence.

I think we are looking at this in totally different ways, from totally different perspectives. Probably so far apart it’s not worth pursuing.

Additional: people didn’t vote to leave because they were suffering. People voted to leave because the campaign pandered to their base emotions and encouraged division.

Would it hurt to say ‘in my opinion.....’ once in a while, or at least ‘I think.....’? It’s this telling people they are wrong and giving the serious impression that they are also thick and possibly malign that means they will never heed your advice. Most people don’t like being lectured.

 

[West London Willy]

I think we are looking at this in totally different ways, from totally different perspectives. Probably so far apart it’s not worth pursuing.

Would it hurt to say ‘in my opinion.....’ once in a while, or at least ‘I think.....’? It’s this telling people they are wrong and giving the serious impression that they are also thick and possibly malign that means they will never heed your advice. Most people don’t like being lectured.

If that’s your only comment, we are that far apart. If people don’t understand that I’m posting what I think unless I explicitly say so, I’m not sure I can dumb myself down enough to be part of this crowd.

 

[sb_73]

If that’s your only comment, we are that far apart. If people don’t understand that I’m posting what I think unless I explicitly say so, I’m not sure I can dumb myself down enough to be part of this crowd.

I rest my case.

 

[West London Willy]

I rest my case.

Your case?

 

[sb_73]

Your case?

Yes, my implicit case which clearly you didn’t get. Sometimes it helps to be explicit, it seems. No matter, I’ve had enough of this little exchange now, cheers Willy.

 

[Deleted.......]

As we seem to be dealing as much in hypotheticals as in facts, just for fun, what would your position be if we had another referendum, there was a similar turnout, and Remain won on a similar 52-48 margin? Would that be sufficient evidence to overturn the original referendum and put an end to it in your mind?

What if it was (say) 53-47 in favour of Brexit the next time?

I got up at 4AM again, so prepare yourself for deteriorating logic, wit and argument as the day progresses.

In a perverse way I'm pleased Remain didn't win by 52/48 as we'd have had to put up with some of the ****e that the decent leave voters have been getting!