Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

No one is born a Muslim, though. Children born to religious families are indoctrinated. It ought to be a choice.

In some cases yes, where the true ‘faithful’ are concerned. But I’m pretty convinced that many, probably most, people who identify as Christian or Jewish and quite possibly Muslim, aren’t religious at all and it makes little or no difference to how they live their lives. It’s just a part of their heritage which they don’t let go of.

Fundamentalism is really a tiny proportion of the ‘faithful’. And I don’t have any problem with fundamentalist Jains.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I don’t think there is. A tiny minority have chosen to, for want of a better phrase, piggy back on Islam with their own agenda but I don’t know what a normal bloke who works in an office in England and happens to have been born a Muslim should do about it. If it were Jews I don’t know what I’d do differently. Probably not a lot.

If I, as a Christian, was living in Pakistan, at a time when Christian extremists were deliberately blowing up Muslim children, stabbing passers by, driving into crowds, cutting the heads off off-duty squaddies etc, I would not just shrug and say it has nothing to do with me. I'd do whatever I could to help the authorities track these people down and stop the killings. So how is it that so many Muslims refuse to work with Prevent, which is UK government designed to stop Muslim kids getting into terrorism, claiming that it's racist?

The impression I get is that a large section of Muslims tacitly sympathise with the cause of the Islamic extremists.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

If I, as a Christian, was living in Pakistan, at a time when Christian extremists were deliberately blowing up Muslim children, stabbing passers by, driving into crowds, cutting the heads off off-duty squaddies etc, I would not just shrug and say it has nothing to do with me. I'd do whatever I could to help the authorities track these people down and stop the killings. So how is it that so many Muslims refuse to work with Prevent, which is UK government designed to stop Muslim kids getting into terrorism, claiming that it's racist?

The impression I get is that a large section of Muslims tacitly sympathise with the cause of the Islamic extremists.

What can the average Muslim do about it? I don’t honestly know but I’d imagine very little and that the vast majority would do something to stop an attack if they could and don’t tacitly sympathise at all. It’s not something I know a lot about beyond having a handful of Muslim friends and colleagues but just the impression I get.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

It seemed that he was just invited on so that he could be accused of inspiring the Finsbury mosque attack, which he plainly didn't. Every time I've heard him speak, he's been quite impressive. Instead of shouting him down, maybe people should listen to what he's saying and counter him with reason and argument. The whole Newsnight programme tonight seemed to be about how Muslims are being badly treated in this country. Perhaps they are, but they should look closer to home and realise that there is a problem with their religion.

Newsnight was right to give Robinson an opportunity to voice his concerns. The "no platform" brigade could learn from this. If the people of the UK were racist, then Jewish people, Hindus, Sihks, and Buddists would be targeted by the general populace, but they never have been.

The current anti-semitism currently being experienced is being driven largely by Muslims in the UK, and the pro-Palestinian factions

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

What can the average Muslim do about it? I don’t honestly know but I’d imagine very little and that the vast majority would do something to stop an attack if they could and don’t tacitly sympathise at all. It’s not something I know a lot about beyond having a handful of Muslim friends and colleagues but just the impression I get.

They could work with Prevent rather than obstruct it. They could report extremist preachers and extremist teachers. There's still a defensive "us and them" attitude within large parts of the Muslim community ie those that refuse to integrate with the rest of the populace. I accept, of course, that this does not apply to all Muslims.

 

[sb_73]

If I, as a Christian, was living in Pakistan, at a time when Christian extremists were deliberately blowing up Muslim children, stabbing passers by, driving into crowds, cutting the heads off off-duty squaddies etc, I would not just shrug and say it has nothing to do with me. I'd do whatever I could to help the authorities track these people down and stop the killings. So how is it that so many Muslims refuse to work with Prevent, which is UK government designed to stop Muslim kids getting into terrorism, claiming that it's racist?

The impression I get is that a large section of Muslims tacitly sympathise with the cause of the Islamic extremists.

You can speak for yourself, but not for all Christians Goldie (it is you with a new account isn’t it?) Plenty of examples of violence by Christians which the Christian community did little or nothing about - Catholic Croatia and Orthodox Serbia in the Balkans war, attacks on homosexuals in Africa, attacks on pro choice people in the US and elsewhere, the Catholic sponsored slaughter in Rwanda, decades of abuse of children in the ‘care’ of the church - none ancient history.

I don’t think any religion is inherently violent or inherently peaceful, it’s just what it’s adherents make it. I completely understand members of a minority pulling up the drawbridge when they are collectively blamed for the actions of some of their members. It certainly doesn’t help, but it’s a natural defensive reaction. If you can blame all Muslims for the actions of some Muslims, apply the same principle to other collective identities, and think of the consequences.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

You can speak for yourself, but not for all Christians Goldie (it is you with a new account isn’t it?) Plenty of examples of violence by Christians which the Christian community did little or nothing about - Catholic Croatia and Orthodox Serbia in the Balkans war, attacks on homosexuals in Africa, attacks on pro choice people in the US and elsewhere, the Catholic sponsored slaughter in Rwanda, decades of abuse of children in the ‘care’ of the church - none ancient history.

I don’t think any religion is inherently violent or inherently peaceful, it’s just what it’s adherents make it. I completely understand members of a minority pulling up the drawbridge when they are collectively blamed for the actions of some of their members. It certainly doesn’t help, but it’s a natural defensive reaction. If you can blame all Muslims for the actions of some Muslims, apply the same principle to other collective identities, and think of the consequences.

Yes, it is me. I've had password problems with my old not-606 account and since Not-606 Technical Help haven't bothered to reply to my requests for assistance, I've had to open a new account.

I didn't claim to speak on behalf of all Christians, and I'm not saying Christians haven't carried out heinous crimes. The Holocaust was carried out by Christians.

But since I'm speaking for myself, I have to give the example as a Christian, because I don't have another religion. That is how I would react. And, to be fair, it is how some Muslims react. The journalist and Muslim commentator Maajid Nawaz (Founder member of Quilliam, LBC and last night on Sky's The Pledge) is magnificent on the subject, pressing for tolerant, liberal, democratic values in Islam. He is highly critical of the religion as interpreted by many regressive Imam's, who want believers to live by the equivalent of Christians Old Testament. He has received death threats from parts of the Muslim community. There lies the problem, which we don't see in any other mainstream religion.

 

[BobbyD]

Did anyone see this interview when C4's Cathy Newman interviewed the Canadian clinical psychotherapist Jordan Peterson. She tries to suggest that what he actually says is something different by interjecting with ... ''So what you're saying is ... '' By the end of it he can completely bamboozles her. It's about the gender pay gap among other things and is well worth watching if you have half an hour to spare.

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just listened to this. The guys brilliant.

 

[durbar2003]

Dow down 665 points today..............

 

[ELLERS]

Dow down 665 points today..............

Yeah I have been watching. Most markets are down

 

[sb_73]

Dow down 665 points today..............

Interest rate rise speculation?

 

[durbar2003]

Interest rate rise speculation?

Thats one of reasons, caused by the better jobs added numbers and record wage increases.

 

[ELLERS]

Interest rate rise speculation?

I heard that as well. They always said "if American sneezes the rest of the World gets a cold"

 

[Stroller]

It was quite chilly today.

 

[rangercol]

Well, as an absolutist when it comes to freedom of speech, I agree he needs to be heard and debated with. He didn’t incite the Finsbury attack, and from what I read attempts to be non violent in his approach (though not when it comes to supporting Luton). However, his opinions were certainly a factor in ‘radicalising’ the attacker, in the same way that the TV drama on grooming/abuse by mainly Islamic men did. Not deliberate but a factor. And it is probably true that if you spend your time telling everyone who will listen that radical Islam is an existential threat to our civilisation, some of those listening will feel they are justified in defending their civilisation using any means possible. Which might be fair enough if you believe civilisation is really under threat, which I don’t.

I also struggle to take someone who goes under a pseudonym borrowed from a ‘legendary’ Luton Town hooligan firm leader too seriously.


I broadly agree, but unfortunately Islam does contain within it the seeds of violent fundamentalism, just like Christianity does. Not sure about Judaism, not familiar enough with it. And Islam is the only major religion, as far as I am aware, which has a warlord as its founder and central figure. But what an ordinary bloke who goes about his life peaceably and just happens to be born Muslim can do about it I don’t know.

Lifting people out of poverty and ignorance would help.

As far as I'm aware, Islam is the only major religion not to go through some kind of reformation. It desperately needs it and has a huge problem as it is. This in turn far too often become our problem. I think too many people are burying their heads in the sand concerning how much of a problem Islam and the rest of the World has within it's religion.

As I think we've agreed before, IMO ALL religious schools should be banned. I'd take it further and ban all public religious worship too, but I presume then we'd just push the evil ones further underground.

 

[rangercol]

If I, as a Christian, was living in Pakistan, at a time when Christian extremists were deliberately blowing up Muslim children, stabbing passers by, driving into crowds, cutting the heads off off-duty squaddies etc, I would not just shrug and say it has nothing to do with me. I'd do whatever I could to help the authorities track these people down and stop the killings. So how is it that so many Muslims refuse to work with Prevent, which is UK government designed to stop Muslim kids getting into terrorism, claiming that it's racist?

The impression I get is that a large section of Muslims tacitly sympathise with the cause of the Islamic extremists.

This. Plus every poll shows this too.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

This. Plus every poll shows this too.

Apparently this nutter who ran a van into some Muslims was known locally and publicly announced his intention to kill in his local. Why aren’t these people being pilloried but a guy who just gets on with his life is expected to somehow do something about terrorism simply because he was born a Muslim?

 

[rangercol]

Yes, it is me. I've had password problems with my old not-606 account and since Not-606 Technical Help haven't bothered to reply to my requests for assistance, I've had to open a new account.

I didn't claim to speak on behalf of all Christians, and I'm not saying Christians haven't carried out heinous crimes. The Holocaust was carried out by Christians.

But since I'm speaking for myself, I have to give the example as a Christian, because I don't have another religion. That is how I would react. And, to be fair, it is how some Muslims react. The journalist and Muslim commentator Maajid Nawaz (Founder member of Quilliam, LBC and last night on Sky's The Pledge) is magnificent on the subject, pressing for tolerant, liberal, democratic values in Islam. He is highly critical of the religion as interpreted by many regressive Imam's, who want believers to live by the equivalent of Christians Old Testament. He has received death threats from parts of the Muslim community. There lies the problem, which we don't see in any other mainstream religion.

I have huge respect for Nawaz. He has said for years that his religion is in desperate need of reformation.

 

[rangercol]

Apparently this nutter who ran a van into some Muslims was known locally and publicly announced his intention to kill in his local. Why aren’t these people being pilloried but a guy who just gets on with his life is expected to somehow do something about terrorism simply because he was born a Muslim?

That twat is every bit as twisted and evil as any Islamic extremist imo. I can't speak for the people who knew him but I like to think I'd have said something.
I don't know whether he was known to the security services or not?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I have huge respect for Nawaz. He has said for years that his religion is in desperate need of reformation.

Yes, he's a breath of fresh air. Unsurprisingly, his LBC program is punctuated by fellow Muslims complaining that he's got it in for the Muslim faith, when what he is really doing is trying to drag it into the C21st..