Off Topic The Politics Thread

[seagullhoop]

So, am I right in thinking that everyone on here who wants a second referendum doesn't actually agree with referendums anyway, as the result can be overturned by a another..........and another..........etc etc?
Therefore, what's the point in ever having one?

Well, it was advisory, so it holds no legal obligation, despite Theresa May's keenness to describe a difference of less that 2% justification to claim it was the 'will of the people' - a concept that is laughably naive if you claim it to be unchanging and something that should stand in perpetuity.

OnAnd if you do believe that... then the vote to join the EU was equally 'the will of the people' - should that not stand as finite and unquestioned? Clearly a flawed argument don't you think?

Interestingly, in the period between the 2010 and 2015 elections a surprising percentage of the electorate were swing voters according to the BES - http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/how-were-almost-all-swingers-now/

Out of the something like 44m registered voters that amounted to potentially 11m (clearly not accounting for those that don't vote) that are undecided enough in their party politics to change from one to another side of the political divide every few years. If you take the 34m that voted in the referendum - that might suggest that 8.5m might change their minds if offered another chance to express their opinion - and what we do know for sure is that only a small swing would be needed to change the 'will of the people' to remain.

Also it's not about just rerunning the vote, not sure why people are hung up on that... indeed that would be indeed slightly pointless. Conversely giving 'the people' the opportunity to cast their vote on the basis of actual fact and detail rather than the unsubstantiated slogans and bombast of the Brexit campaign is hardly the traitorous behaviour that the more dogmatic among us would prefer us to believe.

It's often forgotten that we do know what membership of the EU entails, including costs, responsibilities and all the associated trade and social impacts.

But whether you like it or not we still have absolutely no idea about how Brext will impact the country - on the basis of that alone it would suggest that the idea that a single advisory vote should be construed as a final (and somehow legally, politically and socially binding) contract is ludicrous.

 

[sb_73]

Totally agree in one part and not so much in another...
1. can you trust an MP to make an honest decision?
2. Agree Blair took us to war on a lie. Seriously that tw2nt has blood on his hands.

I can’t trust the electorate to make a sensible decision either, why trust one drug more than another?

I wasn’t making a point about Iraq II, but wars in general. And I don’t want a referendum on them, or ****s like Saddam might still be committing genocide.

 

[seagullhoop]

It's funny that all this good news is greeted with "only because". many factors make currency go up and down but sadly the remoaners will use the negatives all the time.

No. You were using Brexit as a factor behind the rise in Sterling - I was pointing out that it wasn't.

Hardly a 'remoaner' position... more a simple desire for reasonable adherence to the available facts.

 

[ELLERS]

But whether you like it or not we still have absolutely no idea about how Brext will impact the country - on the basis of that alone it would suggest that the idea that a single advisory vote should be construed as a final (and somehow legally, politically and socially binding) contract is ludicrous.

The flip side of that is we don't know what will happen by staying in the EU and how it will impact the country.
Already Jean-Claude Juncker has called for 'tighter EU integration'. A Euro army and more freedom of movement without passports.
I don't want to be a part of a United States of Europe, under one flag and a load of unelected anti-British muppets in Brussels.
What I also keep hearing is this rubbish about a referendum and voting. We voted and it was Leave so we leave.

 

[ELLERS]

No. You were using Brexit as a factor behind the rise in Sterling - I was pointing out that it wasn't.

Hardly a 'remoaner' position... more a simple desire for reasonable adherence to the available facts.

No, I am using these examples as good news for the country.
Remember we were all told of doomsday as soon as we voted to leave.

 

[seagullhoop]

No, I am using these examples as good news for the country.
Remember we were all told of doomsday as soon as we voted to leave.

Apologies... I took your cut and past of the title as something you wanted to highlight.

TBH I'd rather have some actual detail on Brexit... I can read the BBC website. What I can't read are impact assessments or any actual substance on what Brexit will actually mean to a citizen of the UK.

 

[sb_73]

Apologies... I took your cut and past of the title as something you wanted to highlight.

TBH I'd rather have some actual detail on Brexit... I can read the BBC website. What I can't read are impact assessments or any actual substance on what Brexit will actually mean to a citizen of the UK.

That’s because the government impact assessments only exist in a form that could have been written by an 11 year old, apparently.

 

[ELLERS]

TBH I'd rather have some actual detail on Brexit... I can read the BBC website. What I can't read are impact assessments or any actual substance on what Brexit will actually mean to a citizen of the UK.

If you want an impact assessment on Brexit you could always read the unbiased one released by the Mayor of London? If not buy a copy of the Mirror and believe what they say.
Whatever side you are on Leave/remain no one has a crystal ball and no one will know what will happen.
I don't believe in hope, I believe in my countries ingenuity, it's creativity and robust way of pulling through challenges. The way some are talking it's as if it's was worse than in 1939 when we were at war.
TBH we have never really been part of Europe. We are always causing them problems. The Brits always moan They don't really like us. All they do is take our money and take the P.
They had plenty of opportunities to change but they took the P and now they have lost a major player. The best IMO. Europe will be f22ked in a few years because you cannot take away a countries identity (unless they are weak). You can all see but won't admit it. Better off without them.

 

[ELLERS]

That’s because the government impact assessments only exist in a form that could have been written by an 11 year old, apparently.

Then go with The Mayor of Londons assessment... which by the way is being described as cheese (full of holes).

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

No, I am using these examples as good news for the country.
Remember we were all told of doomsday as soon as we voted to leave.

Doomsday? Still up to this very minute can anyone know how this is going to turn out

You are anti EU so what !

you are jumping at conclusions as to justify your vote and opinion. Exactly the same as others who hold the opposite view to remain

This to me shows that neither side will ever yield and it will take years to heal. It has to of course as the only number facts we have is 52/48. The total sum of voters couldn’t get England to work what chance does 52% have without the 48% onside?

Anyone agree that this whole thing is going to cost money? a lot of money!
The brexiteers have not got there sums right from the start. If it starts hitting the pockets of people that voted to remain how does anyone ever think that is acceptable. Not just the pocket s of individuals if the overall economy suffers that could be worse

Where is the money coming from?
No one seems to have a clue
Things will be different but I have yet to meet a Brexiteer who offers any idea on this.

The strength of the pound is irrelevant

Why are businesses looking at exit plans
Because they fear massive tax changes would be required. They are certainly smarter than this government and certainly more powerful

Is that Doomsday?

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

If you want an impact assessment on Brexit you could always read the unbiased one released by the Mayor of London? If not buy a copy of the Mirror and believe what they say.
Whatever side you are on Leave/remain no one has a crystal ball and no one will know what will happen.
I don't believe in hope, I believe in my countries ingenuity, it's creativity and robust way of pulling through challenges. The way some are talking it's as if it's was worse than in 1939 when we were at war.
TBH we have never really been part of Europe. We are always causing them problems. The Brits always moan They don't really like us. All they do is take our money and take the P.
They had plenty of opportunities to change but they took the P and now they have lost a major player. The best IMO. Europe will be f22ked in a few years because you cannot take away a countries identity (unless they are weak). You can all see but won't admit it. Better off without them.

I work for this countries creativity ... Top ****ing end ! They have all left you silly sod I told you ! You could put your hopes in one or two companies for sure but you have no idea if they voted to leave.

How do you cure the divide what is your answer .... tell them all to F off

 

[seagullhoop]

The flip side of that is we don't know what will happen by staying in the EU and how it will impact the country.
Already Jean-Claude Juncker has called for 'tighter EU integration'. A Euro army and more freedom of movement without passports.
I don't want to be a part of a United States of Europe, under one flag and a load of unelected anti-British muppets in Brussels.
What I also keep hearing is this rubbish about a referendum and voting. We voted and it was Leave so we leave.

Well we're clearly not going to agree on your interpretation of his speech - I also read about the EU being more pivotal in world trade by expanding into Australasia, about tax and welfare becoming standardised and the proper enforcement of taxation on companies like Google and Amazon being implemented. Add to that action on industrial modernisation, foreign investment controls and immigration reforms should be a clear win for those concerned about innovation and external factors.

There seems to be a lot of fear about a 'Euro Army' despite the fact that it would take a huge swing of opinion across the member states to actually achieve that - something that is deeply unlikely to occur. Similarly the adoption of the Euro is more an aspiration that a real probability given the antipathy of certain member states.

Ironically Britain has always been a thorn in the side of the EU, our veto helping to mitigate the more expansionist factions of the organisation - us leaving actually brings the likelihood of integration even closer, and with it a much more protectionist approach... something that a country outside the bloc still intending to trade freely with the EU might be a little nervous of.

 

[seagullhoop]

If you want an impact assessment on Brexit you could always read the unbiased one released by the Mayor of London? If not buy a copy of the Mirror and believe what they say.
Whatever side you are on Leave/remain no one has a crystal ball and no one will know what will happen.
I don't believe in hope, I believe in my countries ingenuity, it's creativity and robust way of pulling through challenges. The way some are talking it's as if it's was worse than in 1939 when we were at war.
TBH we have never really been part of Europe. We are always causing them problems. The Brits always moan They don't really like us. All they do is take our money and take the P.
They had plenty of opportunities to change but they took the P and now they have lost a major player. The best IMO. Europe will be f22ked in a few years because you cannot take away a countries identity (unless they are weak). You can all see but won't admit it. Better off without them.

No. But always interested in your view.

 

[ELLERS]

Doomsday? Still up to this very minute can anyone know how this is going to turn out

You are anti EU so what !

you are jumping at conclusions as to justify your vote and opinion. Exactly the same as others who hold the opposite view to remain

This to me shows that neither side will ever yield and it will take years to heal. It has to of course as the only number facts we have is 52/48. The total sum of voters couldn’t get England to work what chance does 52% have without the 48% onside?

Anyone agree that this whole thing is going to cost money? a lot of money!
The brexiteers have not got there sums right from the start. If it starts hitting the pockets of people that voted to remain how does anyone ever think that is acceptable. Not just the pocket s of individuals if the overall economy suffers that could be worse

Where is the money coming from?
No one seems to have a clue
Things will be different but I have yet to meet a Brexiteer who offers any idea on this.

The strength of the pound is irrelevant

Why are businesses looking at exit plans
Because they fear massive tax changes would be required. They are certainly smarter than this government and certainly more powerful

Is that Doomsday?

Plenty of people homeless going to food banks and in poverty, mass unemployment for the young...
And I am not talking about the UK, I'm talking about the EU.
Look at the ground the far right has made in EU countries and how millions around Europe agree with Brexit and want it for their own countries.
People want to talk facts. Instead of remoaning and keep putting our country down check out the Euro news.
EUROPE DO NOT WANT US TO HAVE ANOTHER REFERENDUM. They will be glad to see the back of us. instead of keep knocking your country support it and believe in it.

 

[ELLERS]

Well we're clearly not going to agree on your interpretation of his speech - I also read about the EU being more pivotal in world trade by expanding into Australasia,

That was never the case before... always a closed shop like Canada. Now we are leaving they have decided to modernize? Maybe they should have done that before or accepted 1of the 70 ideas we put forward.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Plenty of people homeless going to food banks and in poverty, mass unemployment for the young...
And I am not talking about the UK, I'm talking about the EU.
Look at the ground the far right has made in EU countries and how millions around Europe agree with Brexit and want it for their own countries.
People want to talk facts. Instead of remoaning and keep putting our country down check out the Euro news.
EUROPE DO NOT WANT US TO HAVE ANOTHER REFERENDUM. They will be glad to see the back of us. instead of keep knocking your country support it and believe in it.

I do support my country
Of course I don’t believe in it what is there to believe in? It’s divided for a start but I firmly believe always believe in change or new ideas. How can anyone believe in the current U.K. model. The EU at least looks after it’s own saying that of course it will itself change by the U.K. leaving

The U.K. is just a big shop

 

[ELLERS]

There seems to be a lot of fear about a 'Euro Army' despite the fact that it would take a huge swing of opinion across the member states to actually achieve that - something that is deeply unlikely to occur.

seriously Seagull you do need to read up on this. It has been said so many times by the boys in Brussels on every news station. They want a Euro-army and it will be controlled by the Germans.

 

[seagullhoop]

That was never the case before... always a closed shop like Canada. Now we are leaving they have decided to modernize? Maybe they should have done that before or accepted 1of the 70 ideas we put forward.

Likewise... it is only in the light of Brexit he has been more forceful about closer integration... it's often how these things go.

 

[seagullhoop]

seriously Seagul you do need to read up on this. It has been said so many times by the boys in Brussels on every news station. They want a Euro-army and it will be controlled by the Germans.

Read what I said... actually I'll repost it for you

"There seems to be a lot of fear about a 'Euro Army' despite the fact that it would take a huge swing of opinion across the member states to actually achieve that - something that is deeply unlikely to occur."

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

seriously Seagul you do need to read up on this. It has been said so many times by the boys in Brussels on every news station. They want a Euro-army and it will be controlled by the Germans.

Good as least they know how to fight if required as do my beloved French nation
Think of the gear they have as well ... it all works