Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
sb_73 said:
MPs don’t have to follow the ‘will of the people’ particularly when it is so narrowly and ambiguously expressed as in the referendum.
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Sorry, Stan, but I find this an incredibly naive statement. You can go on about what is or is not the definition of democracy, but the fact is, the electorate were given the referendum, and from the moment the majority came out in favour of leaving the EU, they owned that decision. All this crap we hear about it being advisory was something made up by Remainers after they lost. Had they won, it would not have passed their lips.

In my opinion, if Brexit isn't delivered in substance, there will be the biggest quake to the British political system since Cromwell lopped a king's head off.
 
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GoldhawkRoad said:
No please don't post that vid again! It was of a poorly known MEP Hannon, and an early clip of Farage (he changed his mind some way before the referendum). This hardly has the weight of the whole of the government of the day saying Leave would mean leaving the Single Market.

The reason I don't think your scenario will fly is that, as I say in a post above, there are a number of Labour MP's from Leave constituencies that, while happy with a softer Brexit, could not live with the unrestricted immigration that Single Market would bring, so I think would go with a Canada deal or similar. Not all Labour MP's are Chuka Umuna or Diane Abbott
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I seem to remember Hannon being a poster boy for Brexiteers on here, maybe including your good self. Someone on here posted a Hannon speech that you lot were drooling over.

GoldhawkRoad said:
Sorry, Stan, but I find this an incredibly naive statement. You can go on about what is or is not the definition of democracy, but the fact is, the electorate were given the referendum, and from the moment the majority came out in favour of leaving the EU, they owned that decision. All this crap we hear about it being advisory was something made up by Remainers after they lost. Had they won, it would not have passed their lips.

In my opinion, if Brexit isn't delivered in substance, there will be the biggest quake to the British political system since Cromwell lopped a king's head off.
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But it was advisory, Goldie. Farage himself said, just before the referendum, that a 52-48 vote would be 'unfinished business'.

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

Who said that?
 
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Stroller said:
I seem to remember Hannon being a poster boy for Brexiteers on here, maybe including your good self. Someone on here posted a Hannon speech that you lot were drooling over.



But it was advisory, Goldie. Farage himself said, just before the referendum, that a 52-48 vote would be 'unfinished business'.

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

Who said that?
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Hannon was a nothing. No one had heard of him until he started going on U-tube. He's not even a Member of Parliament. You can't seriously be saying that he is as influential as the whole British government, Strolls! Try and have a look at that Marr video if you haven't seen it. All the big hitters were saying Brexit would mean out of the single market.

The UK democracy can change its mind after we have left the EU and given effect to the referendum. If the British people want to try and rejoin at some stage in the future, well, fine, that's democracy
 
Tramore Ranger said:
Watched a programme last night on Channel 4 about The Channel, the busiest shipping lanes etc...

Anyway it focused on small fishermen based in Ramsgate and one or two other areas. This year they've had to contend with a 500 meter wide exclusion zone going the whole width of the channel from Ramsgate to Zeebrugge as there is a major electricity cable laying operation going so that the UK can import electricity into the grid from Europe and give power to some 2 million homes in the south east of England. This has resulted in the fishermen having to travel further from their home port to fish and incur greater costs. Due to EU fishing quotas one chap had to throw back 90% of his catch of skate as he wasn't allowed to land them, but was allowed to catch up to 15 tonnes of prawns in a year, but in the areas he fished there are no prawns. The local fishermen also had to contend with French trawlers fishing in the same area who are allowed to catch huge amounts and deliver them back to France. The contrast was that for a 12 hour day the UK guy earned £140 whilst the French guy was earning €4000 - €5000. No wonder he was keen to leave the EU.....

As compensation for the inconvenience of having to fish elsewhere each fisherman received a gizmo tracking device..........
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The French are better fishermen apart freshwater match fishing where England are world leaders
 
The fishing industry was killed off years ago by governments of the U.K.

We have importing for years so expect plenty more of these documentaries. We have to buy in so much as the U.K. is just one massive shop
 
GoldhawkRoad said:
Hannon was a nothing. No one had heard of him until he started going on U-tube. He's not even a Member of Parliament. You can't seriously be saying that he is as influential as the whole British government, Strolls! Try and have a look at that Marr video if you haven't seen it. All the big hitters were saying Brexit would mean out of the single market.

The UK democracy can change its mind after we have left the EU and given effect to the referendum. If the British people want to try and rejoin at some stage in the future, well, fine, that's democracy
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Farage isn't a Member of Parliament either.
 
So if may makes a deal and parliament votes it down
What then
wto rules and no payment to the Eu
Bring it on
Save 40 BILLION and do trade deals with the rest of the world
If the Tories haven't started negotiating already with the rest of the world then they are as dumb as **** and deserve everything they get
Should you need some lamb butter and wine I know a geezer
 
GoldhawkRoad said:
This was Farage's given reason for leaving the Single Market. Weren't you arguing that he was one of those who claimed we could Brexit and stay in?
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Well he did say that as you know, but perhaps they were just weasel words to reassure some of those who were afraid of the economic damage that leaving the Single Market would do.
 
Stroller said:
Well he did say that as you know, but perhaps they were just weasel words to reassure some of those who were afraid of the economic damage that leaving the Single Market would do.
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He was an initial fan of Norway and the EEA, but dropped that some time before the referendum. In the meantime...Theresa May gets applause from fellow members at the European Council, which either means all sides think the UK is moving towards an amicable and constructive exit, or the EU sees May as the most likely access to deep pocket, and are scared sh*tless that Rees-Mogg may replace her...
 
GoldhawkRoad said:
Sorry, Stan, but I find this an incredibly naive statement. You can go on about what is or is not the definition of democracy, but the fact is, the electorate were given the referendum, and from the moment the majority came out in favour of leaving the EU, they owned that decision. All this crap we hear about it being advisory was something made up by Remainers after they lost. Had they won, it would not have passed their lips.

In my opinion, if Brexit isn't delivered in substance, there will be the biggest quake to the British political system since Cromwell lopped a king's head off.
Click to expand...
Naive? Possibly, but not ignorant of the way governance in this country works. And not populist enough to believe that because I am not part of what was a slender majority 18 months ago I have no rights and no voice. Parliament is working well, forcing compromise. Given the low calibre of its membership it’s something of a surprise.

Anyway, it’s all pretty irrelevant. The next round is going to be entertaining. The EU gearing up to say the transition period should be staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, which means maintaining freedom of movement, and payments and accepting new EU rules made during the period, but not being in the decision making process or EU Parliament. Just like Norway. It’s simple and can be agreed over a pint and a bag of nuts, and means we can get into the future relationship discussions quickly. But they will wait for the U.K. to outline its aims for the transition period before discussing, and given that the Tory party will tear itself to bits over this, that could be a long wait.

Think I’ll give this topic a rest for a bit. It brings out the worst in everyone.
 
sb_73 said:
Naive? Possibly, but not ignorant of the way governance in this country works. And not populist enough to believe that because I am not part of what was a slender majority 18 months ago I have no rights and no voice. Parliament is working well, forcing compromise. Given the low calibre of its membership it’s something of a surprise.

Anyway, it’s all pretty irrelevant. The next round is going to be entertaining. The EU gearing up to say the transition period should be staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, which means maintaining freedom of movement, and payments and accepting new EU rules made during the period, but not being in the decision making process or EU Parliament. Just like Norway. It’s simple and can be agreed over a pint and a bag of nuts, and means we can get into the future relationship discussions quickly. But they will wait for the U.K. to outline its aims for the transition period before discussing, and given that the Tory party will tear itself to bits over this, that could be a long wait.

Think I’ll give this topic a rest for a bit. It brings out the worst in everyone.
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Everyone has a voice, Stan, with a view to bringing about the most advantageous exit from the EU. However, trying to frustrate Brexit by bringing pressure to stay in the Single Market - as per the likes of Adonis - is a controversial area and that's when things get heated.

Tusk has just announced formally that negotiations move on to trade talks. As you say, it will be interesting. We can be sure that negotiators on both sides will clash, but ultimately, I have a feeling the EU may be more amenable than previously, now that there's £40 billion waiting for them once the final signature is on the Brexit deal.
 
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GoldhawkRoad said:
Everyone has a voice, Stan, with a view to bringing about the most advantageous exit from the EU. However, trying to frustrate Brexit by bringing pressure to stay in the Single Market - as per the likes of Adonis - is a controversial area and that's when things get heated.

Tusk has just announced formally that negotiations move on to trade talks. As you say, it will be interesting. We can be sure that negotiators on both sides will clash, but ultimately, I have a feeling the EU may be more amenable than previously, now that there's £40 billion waiting for them once the final signature is on the Brexit deal.
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Everyone has a voice except when they disagree with the populist norm.

There’s no debating with broflakes.
 
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I see the Nazi-lite party has joined a coalition to form Austria’s government.

Religious ‘friends’ of Christopher Hitchens are claiming he had doubts about his atheism before his death -exactly as he said they would, while dismissing the notion.
 
Stroller said:
A poll out today has Remain 10 points ahead :emoticon-0107-sweat
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Another poll of 4,000 people says that less than 8% of people think that race/ethnicity and less than 5% religion should be taken into account in assessing immigrants. Over 80% say criminal record should be, and in the 70s for whether they have a job and whether the job is in an area of skills shortage. Just over 50% think fluent English should be a criterion.

So it seems we aren’t all racist bigots after all. Unless of course the poll was conducted in big urban centres and other liberal enclaves. Or a significant number of immigrants were included in the sample.

Meanwhile, cabinet infighting resumes. Johnson saying to the Sunday Times the we must not become a ‘vassal state’ to the EU, especially over regulation, and Gove arguing we should dump the EU working time directive, limiting working hours to 48 per week. Thus the real agenda of the Johnson, Gove, Davis, Fox band becomes clearer. Its about deregulation and neo-liberal economics, nothing to do with sovereignty or immigration. Fair enough, it’s an economic philosophy to help the uber rich get even richer, but it would have been nice of them to spell this out rather than lying about funding the NHS during the referendum campaign. And why not wait a whole day for the two day small and big cabinet meetings on the end state Brexit aims to have these arguments with your colleagues and try to persuade them rather than do it with the media?
 
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