Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

Now on a serious note, I am hearing that we have lost out on European city of culture...So leaving the EU means leaving Europe?
If they want to play that game then it goes to show what they are really like. If you are not in the club you are not in the club.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

We already are. We are leaving that undemocratic club that are only interested in taking our money.

Do not honestly believe that the EU just takes money from Britain and gets nothing back? Seriously that’s your belief ?

If so then it’s very worrying

Any Brexiteers who support QPR should only be allowed to watch the 2nd team

 

[sb_73]

Now on a serious note, I am hearing that we have lost out on European city of culture...So leaving the EU means leaving Europe?
If they want to play that game then it goes to show what they are really like. If you are not in the club you are not in the club.

The EU Commission manages the City of Culture process and the EU Council of Ministers chooses the successful cities.

Eligibility is open to cities in EU member states, in countries that are candidates or potential candidates for membership, or in countries that are part of the European Economic Area (EEA), an example of the latter being Stavanger in Norway, which was a European Capital of Culture in 2008.

It would defy logic to include the U.K. post Brexit, unless we choose to stay in the EEA.

Why, as a Brexiter would you actually want a UK city to be a part of an EU process in 2023?

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Now on a serious note, I am hearing that we have lost out on European city of culture...So leaving the EU means leaving Europe?
If they want to play that game then it goes to show what they are really like. If you are not in the club you are not in the club.

I have already mentioned that
It seems Brexiteers are all behind the times

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

First signs on TV about the U.K.culture and society... about time on QT

It’s coming

 

[TootingExcess]

I have a good friend high up in that organisation they are relocating back to Europe. Mirka has already sold her flat close to Canary Wharf for £750k clever girl as prices already falling like a stone there
Exodus ... loving it
It’s all heading for a deferral I tell thee

I know people who work there too. - I live down the road - they are deciding whether to move as they have kids educated locally.

 

[durbar2003]

As I said nay moons ago on here, people voted with their hearts not their brains.,

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

As I said nay moons ago on here, people voted with their hearts not their brains.,

Heart came into it, the need for independence, and there were plenty of good brains behind Brexit. Leaving the EU is predicated upon freeing the UK from the restrictive practices of a declining European market, so that it can enter into agreements with countries worldwide, many of them emerging markets. Onerous EU rules prevent this at present. So it amazes me when I hear Remainers say they haven't seen the advantage of Brexit yet - when we haven't even left the EU.

It was clear that it was going to be complicated to get out, that parties would fight like cats in a sack over money, that Ireland would kick-up over borders ( though the taoiseach seems to have his own domestic problems at present) and the UK economy might have a rocky period during and perhaps for a while after leaving/ transition. Before joining the Common Market, the UK had been a successful and independent country for 1000 years. Brexit is a long term project and for me, the first acid test will be about 10 years hence. There's plenty of work for the government to do on the economy, particularly productivity, before then.

 

[sb_73]

Heart came into it, the need for independence, and there were plenty of good brains behind Brexit. Leaving the EU is predicated upon freeing the UK from the restrictive practices of a declining European market, so that it can enter into agreements with countries worldwide, many of them emerging markets. Onerous EU rules prevent this at present. So it amazes me when I hear Remainers say they haven't seen the advantage of Brexit yet - when we haven't even left the EU.

It was clear that it was going to be complicated to get out, that parties would fight like cats in a sack over money, that Ireland would kick-up over borders ( though the taoiseach seems to have his own domestic problems at present) and the UK economy might have a rocky period during and perhaps for a while after leaving/ transition. Before joining the Common Market, the UK had been a successful and independent country for 1000 years. Brexit is a long term project and for me, the first acid test will be about 10 years hence. There's plenty of work for the government to do on the economy, particularly productivity, before then.

How old will you be in ten years Goldie, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ll be 66 and hopefully long retired.

We’ve just had ten ****ty years, now another ten are predicted. Old gits like me who have the good fortune to be well into their careers and nearing the end of it during this period, having already built up a retirement fund and paid or nearly paid off the mortgage, can afford to be smug and go on about principles, freedom and unrealised future opportunities. Younger people need to know the odds on them being in work, with rising incomes for the next ten years so they can make decisions on buying homes, having families etc. It is a very fair question to ask what are the economic benefits of Brexit, and to be given a more comprehensive answer than ‘free trade with emerging markets’ especially because we will be leaving the ultimate free trade area with 27 countries which itself has trade agreements with 55 others and replacing these with precisely nothing in April 2019.

We already trade with all of these ‘new’ markets (just look at where your clothes are made) and we will continue to trade with EU countries after Brexit. The changes in the amount of trade will have to be huge to make a noticeable difference to ordinary people. I suspect we will see years of bureaucratic negotiations for minor appreciable gains.

The economic case for Brexit only makes sense to me if it’s seen as a choice between free market capitalism with strong social and environmental regulation (the EU) and deregulated free market capitalism (Trump USA aspiration). Which is a valid choice to make, as long as it’s explicit. Of course I favour regulation.

 

[sb_73]

Heard Gove on the radio just now talking about animal sentience and emotion and it’s place in the law. Apparently it’s something to do with puppy farms.

I don’t think anyone who has a pet would doubt that animals have feelings, and from what I have seen on blue planet this includes fish, and from what I understand this is not part of the debate, on which I don’t really have a position, be interested to hear from anyone who does with their reasons.

But what does get me thinking is the concept of animal, and for that matter human, ‘rights’. These are abused so regularly that the concept is just empty words - we have the ‘right’ not to be killed or to be turned into slaves, yet this happens every day. Perhaps we should forget rights and think instead of societal and individual obligations - I should feel obliged to care appropriately for other people and animals. Somebody else’s rights are distant, passive for me, my obligations are immediate and active.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How old will you be in ten years Goldie, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ll be 66 and hopefully long retired.

We’ve just had ten ****ty years, now another ten are predicted. Old gits like me who have the good fortune to be well into their careers and nearing the end of it during this period, having already built up a retirement fund and paid or nearly paid off the mortgage, can afford to be smug and go on about principles, freedom and unrealised future opportunities. Younger people need to know the odds on them being in work, with rising incomes for the next ten years so they can make decisions on buying homes, having families etc. It is a very fair question to ask what are the economic benefits of Brexit, and to be given a more comprehensive answer than ‘free trade with emerging markets’ especially because we will be leaving the ultimate free trade area with 27 countries which itself has trade agreements with 55 others and replacing these with precisely nothing in April 2019.

We already trade with all of these ‘new’ markets (just look at where your clothes are made) and we will continue to trade with EU countries after Brexit. The changes in the amount of trade will have to be huge to make a noticeable difference to ordinary people. I suspect we will see years of bureaucratic negotiations for minor appreciable gains.

The economic case for Brexit only makes sense to me if it’s seen as a choice between free market capitalism with strong social and environmental regulation (the EU) and deregulated free market capitalism (Trump USA aspiration). Which is a valid choice to make, as long as it’s explicit. Of course I favour regulation.

Good post for an old git.

 

[kiwiqpr]

I always thought he was older

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

How old will you be in ten years Goldie, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ll be 66 and hopefully long retired.

We’ve just had ten ****ty years, now another ten are predicted. Old gits like me who have the good fortune to be well into their careers and nearing the end of it during this period, having already built up a retirement fund and paid or nearly paid off the mortgage, can afford to be smug and go on about principles, freedom and unrealised future opportunities. Younger people need to know the odds on them being in work, with rising incomes for the next ten years so they can make decisions on buying homes, having families etc. It is a very fair question to ask what are the economic benefits of Brexit, and to be given a more comprehensive answer than ‘free trade with emerging markets’ especially because we will be leaving the ultimate free trade area with 27 countries which itself has trade agreements with 55 others and replacing these with precisely nothing in April 2019.

We already trade with all of these ‘new’ markets (just look at where your clothes are made) and we will continue to trade with EU countries after Brexit. The changes in the amount of trade will have to be huge to make a noticeable difference to ordinary people. I suspect we will see years of bureaucratic negotiations for minor appreciable gains.

The economic case for Brexit only makes sense to me if it’s seen as a choice between free market capitalism with strong social and environmental regulation (the EU) and deregulated free market capitalism (Trump USA aspiration). Which is a valid choice to make, as long as it’s explicit. Of course I favour regulation.

I'll be 73, Stan, if I haven't fallen under a bus by then. Sure, I'm in your No Debts, Old Gits Club. Looking at it from a youngster's perspective, I have heard all kinds of scare stories. People won't be able to travel on the Continent anymore. If we aren't in the Single Market, we won't be able to trade with Europe. Spain would expel all UK pensioners (Spain have now said no, they can stay as Spain needs the money). The fact is that after Brexit, I would anticipate life going on much as it is now. There will be a short term migration of some City jobs to the Continent, but evidence is that most businesses want to stay in the UK because London has a worldwide perspective particularly on finance and related services, which is not replicated by Continental cities. We need to bring the current Brexit negotiations to a head, one way or another, to provide certainty for business. If the EU are still asking for more money for nothing after Christmas or Ireland is threatening to veto any deal, then we must prepare for WTO, which, from all I have heard, is perfectly doable.

There's no doubt countries will want to trade with us when we are independent again. I expect business will increase with the US, Canada, Australia, NZ - China won't avoid the UK even if we are on WTO with Europe. South America, Far East. I genuinely believe that the opportunities for young people will be huge, but Brexit may take a few years to bed in. The government must support and grow small businesses. Unemployment is at an all time low in the UK now. In France, it's running at 15%. Isn't it better to have people in work, even if the UK has to address productivity? I think your view about negligible gain from new bilateral agreements is far too gloomy. We're the world's sixth largest economy and we have great talent in the country. There's a bright future, I'm convinced of it. And we will have control of our own laws again, our own borders, our own destiny.

 

[Staines R's]

Do not honestly believe that the EU just takes money from Britain and gets nothing back? Seriously that’s your belief ?

If so then it’s very worrying

Any Brexiteers who support QPR should only be allowed to watch the 2nd team

Has any definitive figure been put on the amount we put in to the amount we take out ?
Probably very hard to equate but is an honest question nonetheless.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Heard Gove on the radio just now talking about animal sentience and emotion and it’s place in the law. Apparently it’s something to do with puppy farms.

I don’t think anyone who has a pet would doubt that animals have feelings, and from what I have seen on blue planet this includes fish, and from what I understand this is not part of the debate, on which I don’t really have a position, be interested to hear from anyone who does with their reasons.

But what does get me thinking is the concept of animal, and for that matter human, ‘rights’. These are abused so regularly that the concept is just empty words - we have the ‘right’ not to be killed or to be turned into slaves, yet this happens every day. Perhaps we should forget rights and think instead of societal and individual obligations - I should feel obliged to care appropriately for other people and animals. Somebody else’s rights are distant, passive for me, my obligations are immediate and active.

Law is about rights and obligations. They complement each other, but sadly, both are breached because humans are fallible. The UK was a good influence in the EU on animal rights and compassion in farming. There are some horrific practices of calves and lambs being packed tight into lorries and ferried hundreds of miles to abattoirs often in intense heat without food or water. It was the UK that got animal rights recognised in the Lisbon Treaty and this needs to be replicated, indeed improved upon, in English Law after Brexit.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Has any definitive figure been put on the amount we put in to the amount we take out ?
Probably very hard to equate but is an honest question nonetheless.

The net amount we put in (ie after taking into account any money we get back) is currently running at between Euro10-11 billion. When I last looked, we were the second largest contributor after Germany. That's a key reason why the EU don't want to lose us.

 

[Staines R's]

The net amount we put in (ie after taking into account any money we get back) is currently running at between £10-11 billion. When I last looked, we were the second largest contributor after Germany. That's a key reason why the EU don't want to lose us.

Per year I assume ?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Per year I assume ?

Yes, sorry. Annual and in Euros.

 

[sb_73]

Has any definitive figure been put on the amount we put in to the amount we take out ?
Probably very hard to equate but is an honest question nonetheless.

Yes, by Parliament.
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7886

So we pay in £8.1bn annually, or, if you read the notes £7.1bn. In context we spend £122bn a year on the NHS, and well over £810bn total government spending. It’s 1%. A lot of money, but not in the bigger scheme of things. The NHS gets through £8bn in 15 days.

And of course our net contribution is a redistribution of wealth from richer to poorer parts of the EU. Power to the people!

 

[sb_73]

I'll be 73, Stan, if I haven't fallen under a bus by then. Sure, I'm in your No Debts, Old Gits Club. Looking at it from a youngster's perspective, I have heard all kinds of scare stories. People won't be able to travel on the Continent anymore. If we aren't in the Single Market, we won't be able to trade with Europe. Spain would expel all UK pensioners (Spain have now said no, they can stay as Spain needs the money). The fact is that after Brexit, I would anticipate life going on much as it is now. There will be a short term migration of some City jobs to the Continent, but evidence is that most businesses want to stay in the UK because London has a worldwide perspective particularly on finance and related services, which is not replicated by Continental cities. We need to bring the current Brexit negotiations to a head, one way or another, to provide certainty for business. If the EU are still asking for more money for nothing after Christmas or Ireland is threatening to veto any deal, then we must prepare for WTO, which, from all I have heard, is perfectly doable.

There's no doubt countries will want to trade with us when we are independent again. I expect business will increase with the US, Canada, Australia, NZ - China won't avoid the UK even if we are on WTO with Europe. South America, Far East. I genuinely believe that the opportunities for young people will be huge, but Brexit may take a few years to bed in. The government must support and grow small businesses. Unemployment is at an all time low in the UK now. In France, it's running at 15%. Isn't it better to have people in work, even if the UK has to address productivity? I think your view about negligible gain from new bilateral agreements is far too gloomy. We're the world's sixth largest economy and we have great talent in the country. There's a bright future, I'm convinced of it. And we will have control of our own laws again, our own borders, our own destiny.

Your last sentence is the core motivation behind Brexit I think (though I still dislike this ‘destiny’ malarkey), clearly driven by the heart, and fair enough. The financial justification (look how much we will get back from stopping EU contributions) is frankly peanuts (see my reply to Stainsey) and the economic one just as, if not more, speculative than the doom and gloom merchants. Why not just stick with ‘getting control of laws and borders is worth it?’

Loads of red herrings in your reply about travel etc (but one fact is that without free movement Britons young and not so young will not be able to work or study

in the EU so easily). My point was that a ‘few years to bed in’ is fine for us in the old gits club, we have some feather bedding to take the pain, but a completely different proposition if you are young and at the bottom of the pile now, in purely economic terms. The OBR predictions of low growth and productivity for years to come even before we know the nature of our exit is depressing. A high employment, low wage economy is better than a high unemployment one, but hardly something to aspire to.

Law is about rights and obligations. They complement each other, but sadly, both are breached because humans are fallible. The UK was a good influence in the EU on animal rights and compassion in farming. There are some horrific practices of calves and lambs being packed tight into lorries and ferried hundreds of miles to abattoirs often in intense heat without food or water. It was the UK that got animal rights recognised in the Lisbon Treaty and this needs to be replicated, indeed improved upon, in English Law after Brexit.

Sure, I just think that if we placed more emphasis on obligations we might actually uphold a few more human and animal rights.