Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Yes people who live in Brighton should be made to live in Hull, they'll teach them to be successful.

My money based on my family situation is that the people of Hull are far more intelligent than the people i know from Brighton. My middle son lives there and i need translation when he comes to see me... Everything is great and amazing and so super cool. I was recently told that he saw an amazing guy in one of the parks using an old typewriter to work on ... kicking back enjoying the rays man while writing a novel maybe.

I said i would if i had seen this questioned the hipster on what exactly was he doing? Typewriters need to perfectly level to work plus the old ribbons dry out in the sun man

Maybe his title of his novel was i am a cnut

 

[TheBigDipper]

It's incredibly important to recognise how young black men are being killed in order to do something about it. Sorry BD, but the limp-wristed liberal approach that what is happening should not be acknowledged merely prolongs the problem.

You say - support for a fellow sportman that's been victimised. There's the problem. No one knows what the protest by these pampered pooches is about. Racism, social injustice, Trump (probably not, because the protest began before he was elected), black killing cops, other sportsmen... you tell me.

America does not have to suffer this alone - we have the Harrow-educated celebrity Cumberbach to tell ordinary working people how to live

Re your para 2 - I don't say it. They do. It's totally clear why they're doing it if you read their words. Calling them "pampered pooches" is irrelevant to the argument although an easy, comforting slur for these who seem to be receptive to those things.

Their opinion doesn't matter because they earn a lot of money? Why is that, then? How come it doesn't apply to Trump or his oligarch friends?

Re your para 3 - a slur without a proper point, presumably intended to diminish the weight of his opinion because he went to Harrow and has a posh accent. If he was making a point you agreed with I don't think you'd be worried, somehow...

Re your para 1 - I don't believe using the slurs and descriptors "limp-wristed liberal" actually is making a point - although it will get support from certain areas because that's the way some people think and vote. I do agree that what is happening should be discussed openly. So does Colin Kaepernick, apparently, but lots of people who are definitely not limp-wristed liberals are trying to stop that discussion from taking place, for reasons of their own.

However, if you can discuss this without resorting to insults and sloganeering about the protagonists, why don't we start the ball rolling here? When black people meet a violent end in the US the perpetrator is statistically more likely to also be a black person. Why do you think that is. Goldie? Is it nature? Is it nurture? Or what?

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Was on the Canal du Midi at the weekend and saw this for Col and the gang:

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Re your para 2 - I don't say it. They do. It's totally clear why they're doing it if you read their words. Calling them "pampered pooches" is irrelevant to the argument although an easy, comforting slur for these who seem to be receptive to those things.

Their opinion doesn't matter because they earn a lot of money? Why is that, then? How come it doesn't apply to Trump or his oligarch friends?

Re your para 3 - a slur without a proper point, presumably intended to diminish the weight of his opinion because he went to Harrow and has a posh accent. If he was making a point you agreed with I don't think you'd be worried, somehow...

Re your para 1 - I don't believe using the slurs and descriptors "limp-wristed liberal" actually is making a point - although it will get support from certain areas because that's the way some people think and vote. I do agree that what is happening should be discussed openly. So does Colin Kaepernick, apparently, but lots of people who are definitely not limp-wristed liberals are trying to stop that discussion from taking place, for reasons of their own.

However, if you can discuss this without resorting to insults and sloganeering about the protagonists, why don't we start the ball rolling here? When black people meet a violent end in the US the perpetrator is statistically more likely to also be a black person. Why do you think that is. Goldie? Is it nature? Is it nurture? Or what?

The difference between pampered pooches and Trump? Are you kidding me? You may not like it - I don't much - but Trump was elected by democratic vote.

I mean no insult whatsoever to you, BD, but I may well throw mild insults at your arguments at times. Feel free to throw some back... Black on black deaths? Look first at gangs, gang-culture and guns, and vast amount of money earned by selling drugs. The sad thing is that it's often young black men without gang member support, trying to make an honest way in the world that are the victims. Society should not pretend the problem does not exist.

 

[BobbyD]

The difference between pampered pooches and Trump? Are you kidding me? You may not like it - I don't much - but Trump was elected by democratic vote.

I mean no insult whatsoever to you, BD, but I may well throw mild insults at your arguments at times. Feel free to throw some back... Black on black deaths? Look first at gangs, gang-culture and guns, and vast amount of money earned by selling drugs. The sad thing is that it's often young black men without gang member support, trying to make an honest way in the world that are the victims. Society should not pretend the problem does not exist.

Whilst i'm sure there's a massive black gang culture, it would be interesting if you have any statistics on this.

As for these American footballers protesting, it is their right especially when you have a loud mouth in Trumpleton who is there to stir the pot. As for the pampered american footballers, the whole point of one guy protesting is obviously because he feels that there's endemic racism in America (who am i to disagree, i'm not black or live in america). Whether it's because of confirmation bias/perception on his behalf or whether it's real, he feels it's worth throwing away millions of dollars to do it (colin kaepernick that is) which goes to show at least he's doing something about it.

The other main guy around protesting is Michael Bennett who was actually arrested for no reason and aggressively dealt with by the police. Whether that was just the standard police brutality by the policeman (i.e. whether he'd react that way to a white person) it goes to show racism hits the rich/poor/famous whether you believe they are pampered or not.

 

[Stroller]

Isn't the fact that murdered black people are most likely to have been killed by other black people a red herring? Of course gang culture is a factor, but the fact that many homicides are perpetrated by family members (black or white) is a factor, too. Anyway, the original NFL protests, by Colin Kaepernick, were in support of Black Lives Matter, which, in turn, was protesting about the disproportionate amount of blacks killed by white policemen.

 

[sb_73]

The difference between pampered pooches and Trump? Are you kidding me? You may not like it - I don't much - but Trump was elected by democratic vote.

I mean no insult whatsoever to you, BD, but I may well throw mild insults at your arguments at times. Feel free to throw some back... Black on black deaths? Look first at gangs, gang-culture and guns, and vast amount of money earned by selling drugs. The sad thing is that it's often young black men without gang member support, trying to make an honest way in the world that are the victims. Society should not pretend the problem does not exist.

And the black American sportsmen making point by kneeling are shining examples of those that have made an honest way in the world. Most come from tough backgrounds, they are not born into privilege and millions they have earned it by hard work and skill. They have first hand experience of the conditions which they are drawing attention to. In the case of NFL players they have stunningly short careers (average 3.3 years, probably less if you take Tom Brady out of the equation). They are the genuine role models making a point that should resonate. Kaepernick put his money where his mouth is, donating $1m of his $12m wage to groups working on social inequality - to their credit the 49ers matched his donation. He chose to kneel rather than simply sit through the anthem (which is what he did originally) to show respect to the US military and veterans.

I think he’s a great example (though doubtless he’s done awful things too, which I am sure the right wing media will publicise) and this is a highly effective way to draw attention to a very high level of inequality in such a rich nation. And Trump has inadvertently helped.

 

[TheBigDipper]

The difference between pampered pooches and Trump? Are you kidding me? You may not like it - I don't much - but Trump was elected by democratic vote.

I mean no insult whatsoever to you, BD, but I may well throw mild insults at your arguments at times. Feel free to throw some back... Black on black deaths? Look first at gangs, gang-culture and guns, and vast amount of money earned by selling drugs. The sad thing is that it's often young black men without gang member support, trying to make an honest way in the world that are the victims. Society should not pretend the problem does not exist.

I've never felt personally insulted by you (as far as my aged brain can remember, anyway). It wouldn't matter to me if you did insult me, as I'd then know I was presenting an argument you couldn't make a case agains, and was probably on the right track. If people resort to insults or slogans that engender an emotional response in the people that read it, then although it may work with some of the audience, I believe the argument is not made and there hasn't been a discussion - it's just a con trick and deserves to be challenged.

Kids try and win playground arguments by calling the other kid "smelly". It often worked with some of the kids in the playground who were affiliating with the person who issued the insult. Now we belittle politicians using terms like "Comrade Corbyn" or "Theresa May-Be" and that can work with some people - but it's a cheat, not a proper discussion and not a valid point that is actually meaningful.

That's what I find disappointing about the regular use of certain phrases at groups of people you don't agree with or at those who hold views that you wouldn't like others to accept and adopt. Yes, you get the cheap laugh and some "likes" from people, but the discussion doesn't progress one jot.

I'm still hoping for better - from all of us.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I've never felt personally insulted by you (as far as my aged brain can remember, anyway). It wouldn't matter to me if you did insult me, as I'd then know I was presenting an argument you couldn't make a case agains, and was probably on the right track. If people resort to insults or slogans that engender an emotional response in the people that read it, then although it may work with some of the audience, I believe the argument is not made and there hasn't been a discussion - it's just a con trick and deserves to be challenged.

Kids try and win playground arguments by calling the other kid "smelly". It often worked with some of the kids in the playground who were affiliating with the person who issued the insult. Now we belittle politicians using terms like "Comrade Corbyn" or "Theresa May-Be" and that can work with some people - but it's a cheat, not a proper discussion and not a valid point that is actually meaningful.

That's what I find disappointing about the regular use of certain phrases at groups of people you don't agree with or at those who hold views that you wouldn't like others to accept and adopt. Yes, you get the cheap laugh and some "likes" from people, but the discussion doesn't progress one jot.

I'm still hoping for better - from all of us.

Well, good, just don't take anything personally. And for my part, I certainly shan't be calling you "smelly"...any time soon

 

[rangercol]

Was on the Canal du Midi at the weekend and saw this for Col and the gang:

What are you insinuating Paul?

 

[sb_73]

Labour is scenario planning. So is Jaguar Land Rover, my spies tell me. And it doesn’t look good. Car market grinding to a halt as no one wants to buy diesels and all those people with diesels can’t get a decent price for them, so can’t trade up to petrol/hybrid/electric. So BMW has more problems than just Brexit. JLR has two scenarios for the impact of Brexit on its business - ‘very bad’ and ‘devastatingly bad’. They expect to sell hundreds of thousands of cars less next year than in 2016 (600,000 total)

But safe to ignore them because they are experts. Also a wrongly installed software change to one of their production lines closed it down for 2 hours yesterday, costing £6m. So their competence can be questioned. And their practice of giving employees with company cars 4 new cars a year if they do 25k miles must be flooding the second hand nearly new market.

 

[West London Willy]

Whatever happened to marches and demonstrations? If a million march, it's infinitely more meaningful than some overpaid celebrities disrespecting the flag or haranguing a theatre audience to let in more refugees (before returning to his mansion in North London and refusing to provide a home for any immigrants).

Clearly not, as we are discussing it

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

What are you insinuating Paul?

Mainly fallen leaves and dead wood this time of the year x

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Clearly not, as we are discussing it

We're discussing highly paid sports stars protesting during the US National anthem, pissing a lot of Americans off and no one is exactly sure what the protest is about. It seems to be anti-Trump. They don't like the result of the election and it's almost a celebrity fashion thing. They have to be seen doing it. I'm expecting Lily Allen to join them imminently. America has moved on since the 1960's. Anyone can be a success there if they set their mind to it.

 

[West London Willy]

Actually, we're discussing the fact that they are protesting. The flag and anthem are just a convenient time to make the protest seen. They aren't protesting against the flag, or the anthem. I'm sure you don't believe Trump's bullshit on that. Have you not read up on Kaepernick's protest, and the support he's now getting? And did you not realise that he did his initial kneeling protest whilst Obama was still president? It's political, yes. But not at all how you describe it.

Sadly, in key areas mostly affecting black and hispanic citizens, America has barely moved since the 60s in attitude and often action. That's why protests are still needed, and why we're having this discussion - at least, why I'M having it.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Actually, we're discussing the fact that they are protesting. The flag and anthem are just a convenient time to make the protest seen. They aren't protesting against the flag, or the anthem. I'm sure you don't believe Trump's bullshit on that. Have you not read up on Kaepernick's protest, and the support he's now getting? And did you not realise that he did his initial kneeling protest whilst Obama was still president? It's political, yes. But not at all how you describe it.

Sadly, in key areas mostly affecting black and hispanic citizens, America has barely moved since the 60s in attitude and often action. That's why protests are still needed, and why we're having this discussion - at least, why I'M having it.

Yes, I realised this preceded Trump - see my reply [HASHTAG]#13097[/HASHTAG]

I'll leave you to your discussion

 

[sb_73]

We're discussing highly paid sports stars protesting during the US National anthem, pissing a lot of Americans off and no one is exactly sure what the protest is about. It seems to be anti-Trump. They don't like the result of the election and it's almost a celebrity fashion thing. They have to be seen doing it. I'm expecting Lily Allen to join them imminently. America has moved on since the 1960's. Anyone can be a success there if they set their mind to it.

They are highly paid but as I pointed out earlier, they haven’t always been and have direct experience of the issues they are protesting about as black Americans. Are you saying that if you are rich you have less right to speak out than if you are poor? They are leveraging their profile very effectively. They are protesting about the fact you are three times more likely to be shot dead by a policeman if you are black in the US than if you are white, which has highlighted social inequality. The Americans they are pissing off, like Trump, are the Americans who don’t think this a problem, or don’t want to admit its a problem. Tough titty.

Do you seriously believe that a kid brought up in a ghetto, in generations of poverty, preceded by slavery, surrounded by drugs and violence and in a crappy underfunded education system has the same life chances, the same equality of opportunity as a nice middle class kid in a private school system? Their one big chance is sports. Same cross generational disadvantages can be seen in the ‘white trash’ pockets that persist in the US (see Nancy Isenberg’s excellent book on the subject). The common denominator is poverty rather than race.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

They are highly paid but as I pointed out earlier, they haven’t always been and have direct experience of the issues they are protesting about as black Americans. Are you saying that if you are rich you have less right to speak out than if you are poor? They are leveraging their profile very effectively. They are protesting about the fact you are three times more likely to be shot dead by a policeman if you are black in the US than if you are white, which has highlighted social inequality. The Americans they are pissing off, like Trump, are the Americans who don’t think this a problem, or don’t want to admit its a problem. Tough titty.

Do you seriously believe that a kid brought up in a ghetto, in generations of poverty, preceded by slavery, surrounded by drugs and violence and in a crappy underfunded education system has the same life chances, the same equality of opportunity as a nice middle class kid in a private school system? Their one big chance is sports. Same cross generational disadvantages can be seen in the ‘white trash’ pockets that persist in the US (see Nancy Isenberg’s excellent book on the subject). The common denominator is poverty rather than race.

If the problem is poverty rather than race ( and I agree it is), why isn't this an interracial protest?

Throwing around statistics without putting them in context doesn't help. I can show you, for example, that while most murders in the US are not interracial,over the last 15 years, twice as many black people have killed whites, as whites have killed black. Racist cops should be sought out and dismissed, but I suspect the fact that young black men are shot by cops may have something to do with black gang culture. It's the same in London. The spate of stabbings we have seen has not been carried out by white, middle aged accountants on their way to work. Mostly, the perpetrators are black and the victims usually are too.

We've just seen a black US president for 8 years. What progress did he make in improving things?

 

[sb_73]

If the problem is poverty rather than race ( and I agree it is), why isn't this an interracial protest?

Throwing around statistics without putting them in context doesn't help. I can show you, for example, that while most murders in the US are not interracial,over the last 15 years, twice as many black people have killed whites, as whites have killed black. Racist cops should be sought out and dismissed, but I suspect the fact that young black men are shot by cops may have something to do with black gang culture. It's the same in London. The spate of stabbings we have seen has not been carried out by white, middle aged accountants on their way to work. Mostly, the perpetrators are black and the victims usually are too.

We've just seen a black US president for 8 years. What progress did he make in improving things?

1) because it has been publicised as a black problem
2) do you see this as all to do with black criminality? The stats don’t lie on this, the crime rate is higher, but I would put this down to environment, poverty, and lack of opportunity rather than race.
3) Obama tried hard, and admitted his biggest failure was on gun control. In a federal system he had little control over education and housing.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

1) because it has been publicised as a black problem
2) do you see this as all to do with black criminality? The stats don’t lie on this, the crime rate is higher, but I would put this down to environment, poverty, and lack of opportunity rather than race.
3) Obama tried hard, and admitted his biggest failure was on gun control. In a federal system he had little control over education and housing.

Different races have different characteristics over there. There's a culture of whites stockpiling guns and behaving like a militia, and heavy drug taking, particularly methamphetamine. And then there's a black gang culture involving guns, drugs, and living high on the hog. There's easy money to be made if you accept that a light that's bright, may well burn out quickly.