Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
GoldhawkRd said:
Stupid thing to say, she should have known better - but for me, not a hanging offence. She didn't call anyone a n***er. She's broadly the same age as me, and in my youth, n***er in a woodpile, eeny meeny miny moe, n***er brown shoe polish, gollyw*gs were all every day phrases, used habitually without any malicious intent and without any conscious thought that these originated by reference to black people. In the 1940's, bouncing bomb air ace Guy Gibson called his black labrador N***er, without, I'm sure, any intention of maligning black people.

We who grew up in the 60's have conditioned ourselves to use other phrases - Morris needs to write out "fly in the ointment" 50 times before going home.
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I think even over 60s are aware of what is and isn't acceptable these days, for an MP to come out with that really beggars belief. If the Tories need to advertise how totally out of touch with the 21st century they are then this is it in a nutshell...
 
Police say 255 people got out of Grenfell Tower, and about 80 died. As both totals are lower than activists say, expect howls of 'cover up'.

This tragedy gives a real insight into Britain today.

- low standards, cost cutting, lack of accountability, lack of concern and care as potential causes
- a group of victims from many different countries, some here illegally
- a magnificent response from the emergency services and ordinary people
- a shoddy, slow and confused response from officialdom
- attempts to exploit the deaths for political gain
- attempts to exploit the deaths and victims by crooks for financial gain
- complete absence of trust, anger dominating, no offers acceptable, investigations condemned before they start
- justice, revenge and compensation become blurred

I lived through the massive ructions of the 70s, but never have I felt I was living in such a fundamentally divided, and increasingly unpleasant, country (I was abroad during the miners strike, that may have been worse). It is only the repeated actions of ordinary people and the people of the front line services that remind me that the core is sound.

Sorry for the bleakness.
 
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sb_73 said:
Police say 255 people got out of Grenfell Tower, and about 80 died. As both totals are lower than activists say, expect howls of 'cover up'.

This tragedy gives a real insight into Britain today.

- low standards, cost cutting, lack of accountability, lack of concern and care as potential causes
- a group of victims from many different countries, some here illegally
- a magnificent response from the emergency services and ordinary people
- a shoddy, slow and confused response from officialdom
- attempts to exploit the deaths for political gain
- attempts to exploit the deaths and victims by crooks for financial gain
- complete absence of trust, anger dominating, no offers acceptable, investigations condemned before they start
- justice, revenge and compensation become blurred

I lived through the massive ructions of the 70s, but never have I felt I was living in such a fundamentally divided, and increasingly unpleasant, country (I was abroad during the miners strike, that may have been worse). It is only the repeated actions of ordinary people and the people of the front line services that remind me that the core is sound.

Sorry for the bleakness.
Click to expand...

If the true death toll is not in triple figures then I'm a Dutchman.
 
sb_73 said:
Police say 255 people got out of Grenfell Tower, and about 80 died. As both totals are lower than activists say, expect howls of 'cover up'.

This tragedy gives a real insight into Britain today.

- low standards, cost cutting, lack of accountability, lack of concern and care as potential causes
- a group of victims from many different countries, some here illegally
- a magnificent response from the emergency services and ordinary people
- a shoddy, slow and confused response from officialdom
- attempts to exploit the deaths for political gain
- attempts to exploit the deaths and victims by crooks for financial gain
- complete absence of trust, anger dominating, no offers acceptable, investigations condemned before they start
- justice, revenge and compensation become blurred

I lived through the massive ructions of the 70s, but never have I felt I was living in such a fundamentally divided, and increasingly unpleasant, country (I was abroad during the miners strike, that may have been worse). It is only the repeated actions of ordinary people and the people of the front line services that remind me that the core is sound.

Sorry for the bleakness.
Click to expand...

Upon whose door(s) would you lay the blame for the fundamental divisions and increasing unpleasantness, Stanners?
 
Uber_Hoop said:
Upon whose door(s) would you lay the blame for the fundamental divisions and increasing unpleasantness, Stanners?
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone set out to create this situation deliberately so 'blame' is the wrong word Ubes. Two things are, I think, at it's core, and they are both cultural with political roots. It's relatively early so I haven't thought this through very clearly.

The first is the 'entitlement' culture, closely allied to 'identity politics' which simultaneously tribalises us and then allows each tribe to somehow believe it has rights broader than and different to those available to all of us. But no obligations it seems. It's not just the obvious tribes - the young, religious and ethnic groups, gender/ sexual orientation etc etc, but now almost anything - victims of some kind, residents of particular places etc etc. Watching the pro lifers for Charlie Gard and the relatives of the Birmingham Pub bombing victims on the news last night gave me two more tribes. Many seem very keen to take offence and equally keen to prevent debate, even calm, rational debate. Some of these tribes definitely have been unfairly disadvantaged and deserved better, but the utter lack of trust in the broader community means we have fragmented and there may not be a community any more, just sets of competing expectations for 'justice' whatever that is.

I think this has been driven mainly by left wing people, probably originally out of the best of intentions to address obvious inequalities, but now it's out of control. The right has been passively compliant for the most part. Both sides exploit it - cf May's 'citizens of nowhere' Speech which was aggressively tribal and divisive. The only quiet tribe seems to be ours - white, middle aged, middle class - and we are just filled with repressed ****ing anger. The 'chin up, grin and bear it, worse things happen at sea, mustn't grumble' attitude to misfortune (or even slight inconvenience) is dying.

The second is the cult of the individual, the idea that everyone can be fulfilled and that somehow this is separate from collective fulfilment and success. For more detail I refer you to Adam Curtis' film essay The Trap, especially the first part **** You Buddy. The impact of this is very similar to tribalism, but it stems from right wing economics and Cold War game theory. Both of which were enthusiastically taken up, probably unconsciously of the full implications, by both Thatcher and Blair, and the results - which include the measurement/performance culture, the 'everyone should always be happy' approach to mental health (which we discussed on the Caulker thread), and a pervasive suspicion of the motives of others - are now incredibly deeply embedded. Our expectations for ourselves are unrealistic yet continually encouraged to grow. When they are not met we get angry and resentful.

A third thing, probably related to the first two, is a near universal lack of trust in authority and the establishment - from politicians to judges. Some of this is justified because some of the establishment is untrustworthy. And they continually oversimplify very complex choices, leading to black/white, us/them posturing.

Probably easy to knock holes in this, but best I can do at this time in the morning.
 
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sb_73 said:
I don't think anyone set out to create this situation deliberately so 'blame' is the wrong word Ubes. Two things are, I think, at it's core, and they are both cultural with political roots. It's relatively early so I haven't thought this through very clearly.

The first is the 'entitlement' culture, closely allied to 'identity politics' which simultaneously tribalises us and then allows each tribe to somehow believe it has rights broader than and different to those available to all of us. But no obligations it seems. It's not just the obvious tribes - the young, religious and ethnic groups, gender/ sexual orientation etc etc, but now almost anything - victims of some kind, residents of particular places etc etc. Watching the pro lifers for Charlie Gard and the relatives of the Birmingham Pub bombing victims on the news last night gave me two more tribes. Many seem very keen to take offence and equally keen to prevent debate, even calm, rational debate. Some of these tribes definitely have been unfairly disadvantaged and deserved better, but the utter lack of trust in the broader community means we have fragmented and there may not be a community any more, just sets of competing expectations for 'justice' whatever that is.

I think this has been driven mainly by left wing people, probably originally out of the best of intentions to address obvious inequalities, but now it's out of control. The right has been passively compliant for the most part. Both sides exploit it - cf May's 'citizens of nowhere' Speech which was aggressively tribal and divisive. The only quiet tribe seems to be ours - white, middle aged, middle class - and we are just filled with repressed ****ing anger. The 'chin up, grin and bear it, worse things happen at sea, mustn't grumble' attitude to misfortune (or even slight inconvenience) is dying.

The second is the cult of the individual, the idea that everyone can be fulfilled and that somehow this is separate from collective fulfilment and success. For more detail I refer you to Adam Curtis' film essay The Trap, especially the first part **** You Buddy. The impact of this is very similar to tribalism, but it stems from right wing economics and Cold War game theory. Both of which were enthusiastically taken up, probably unconsciously of the full implications, by both Thatcher and Blair, and the results - which include the measurement/performance culture, the 'everyone should always be happy' approach to mental health (which we discussed on the Caulker thread), and a pervasive suspicion of the motives of others - are now incredibly deeply embedded. Our expectations for ourselves are unrealistic yet continually encouraged to grow. When they are not met we get angry and resentful.

A third thing, probably related to the first two, is a near universal lack of trust in authority and the establishment - from politicians to judges. Some of this is justified because some of the establishment is untrustworthy. And they continually oversimplify very complex choices, leading to black/white, us/them posturing.

Probably easy to knock holes in this, but best I can do at this time in the morning.
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You've just given me a hard-on :)
 
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