Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Uber_Hoop]

There must be more working class and disadvantaged kids going to Uni now simply because 40% of 18 year olds go now compared to the 5% who when I went, when it was free with a means tested maintenance grant - the perfect scenario for the less well off. I think we had ample office jobs and apprenticeships for 16 and 18 year olds to go into and pretty high employment until the early 80s. I suspect if we had this situation again the numbers going to Uni would drop. The government keeps telling us we have great unemployment stats and they are investing in apprenticeships, so perhaps things are changing, but all I hear about from my kids is the crappy quality of the jobs available to them, and saw something yesterday saying that the majority of new graduates are bored at work because they don't have graduate level jobs.

Some degrees, most obviously the medical professions, should not have tuition fees, but there should also be a commitment from those who take up these courses and drop out or choose not to practice medicine at all or leave the country to do it, to pay something back. All other degrees I think the taxpayer could stump up a little more for, but a reduced tuition fee should remain (along with the already existing means tested living grants) because studying at uni is an (expensive) privilege, not a right. I'd love to be back in the times when my high quality and free education to 21 was available to everyone, but the fact is that very few benefitted from it in those days.

However, the interest charged on student loans is a disgrace, even if the repayment schedule linked to income is generous. 4%+ now, possibly going up to 6% soon. Usurious. You can get a 50k loan from Tesco for 3%.

Totally agree with the Polytechnic comment.

I'd like to see tuition fees scrapped altogether, the return of polytechnics and courses better aligned to what industry requires. There is always talk about industry and the educational establishment getting together on this, but rarely much of substance seems to come out. However, I took Uber Major to the University of Surrey's Open Day on Saturday and was impressed by the emphasis they placed on this alignment, seemingly taking care to ensure that their degree qualifications earned maximum points towards the subsequent professional qualifications, liaising closely with the professional bodies and industry players with importance placed on not only getting the student a degree, but also a job/career afterwards. Presumably other universities will say something similar when I visit them, but UoS came across as credible on this.

I would like to see industry and their professional bodies better encouraged to fund courses at universities and colleges, perhaps by attractive tax breaks (obviously with strings), although having more talented people available in the jobs market ought to be reward enough.

 

[West London Willy]

You can get a 50k loan from Tesco for 3%.

And be legally commited to paying it back whilst at Uni (unless you can defer the start for three/four years, not that common) and then whilst looking for a job at whatever salary you manage to get. Whereas student Loans only become repayable after you are earning a certain salary level, and are collected as salary sacrifice, thereby saving the tax on it. That's if anyone at any other loan company would loan a student 50k.

There's also a point where student debt is written off.

I'm not at all agreeing that 6% is fair, but the picture wasn't as one-sided as you painted, mate.

 

[sb_73]

I'd like to see tuition fees scrapped altogether, the return of polytechnics and courses better aligned to what industry requires. There is always talk about industry and the educational establishment getting together on this, but rarely much of substance seems to come out. However, I took Uber Major to the University of Surrey's Open Day on Saturday and was impressed by the emphasis they placed on this alignment, seemingly taking care to ensure that their degree qualifications earned maximum points towards the subsequent professional qualifications, liaising closely with the professional bodies and industry players with importance placed on not only getting the student a degree, but also a job/career afterwards. Presumably other universities will say something similar when I visit them, but UoS came across as credible on this.

I would like to see industry and their professional bodies better encouraged to fund courses at universities and colleges, perhaps by attractive tax breaks (obviously with strings), although having more talented people available in the jobs market ought to be reward enough.

I am just about to start the round of Uni open days with my daughter. Did it with my son a few years ago, every Uni for every course had its little boast about employment prospects. For the non vocational subject he wanted to study, clearly bullshit. He got the grades but decided not to go at all in the end, though the option is still open.

It's great if you really know what you want to do for the rest of your working life when you are 18 and can choose an appropriate degree course, but many people aren't in that position, myself included, and for those I'm happy for education for its own sake, if you are studying a subject you have a genuine interest in. With decent tutors you should at least learn how to think. I've never had a vocation, have avoided professional qualifications (especially the dreaded MBA, though bizarrely I taught on an MBA course part time for a few months) I've only had curiosity and economic need.

On various kids careers evening I've been impressed with some companies offering what look like excellent training schemes for 18 year olds, where they study for a degree but do real work at the same time. Jaguar Land Rover, some big solicitors firms etc. My dad tried to get me to join the army on its odd sponsor through Uni scheme in 1979. Then he thought again, describing me as a 'born mutineer'. Old bugger knew me quite well.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Actually, it's more than that. Sinn Fein never take their seats (that's seven) and the Speaker always abstains. That means 642 seats in practice, and with a total of 327 against 315, it's effectively a working majority of 12.

That's wishful thinking. A divided Labour party versus a Conservative party that is as divided? Sinn Fein's 7 don't take their seats but then the DUP MPs rarely do as well. Oh well . At least the airlines will have lots of bums on seats regularly for important votes and all paid for by us. It will bring us back to the good old days when the Whips paid for taxis to bring in the sick ones to vote. You also forget that there are dissenters among the Tory ranks who will rebel against anything they dislike too intensely. That is what happens. Even governments with solid majorities occasionally find that their own brand of pure ideological policies fail to get passed because not enough of their MPs either abstain or positively vote against the measure. Interesting times ahead.

 

[West London Willy]

You do understand what the term 'working majority' means, right? It's when everybody who turns up regularly, does so and votes along party lines. Sinn Fein are the only party you can discount, because they have vowed never to take their seats. So 12 it is.

 

[Stroller]

Vote Leave 'mastermind', Dominic Cummings - the man behind the giant lie about 350 million quid a week for the NHS - now concedes that Brexit might be an 'error'. With polls now consistently showing that a majority would vote Remain were they to get another chance, how much further does public opinion have to move before the leaderships of either or both of the major parties decide it's time for a rethink?

 

[ELLERS]

I see they have found out that Tony Blair was 'Not straight" with UK over Iraq.... 'Not straight'? He lied and everyone knows it. That slimy muppet cost many British and Iraq lives. He should have gone to prison for what he has done. What is also criminal is that Geoff Hoon sent our boys to war without the proper equipment then lied about it. People need to remember those brave soldiers had to share bullet proof vest and bullets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...h-inquest-death-amid-claims-new-evidence.html

This incident was sickening. Those Red caps didn't have enough ammo due to rationing. There was also the case of the shared bullet proof vest and on the specific day the soldier died, it was not his turn to wear it.
Thanks Tony Blair I hope one day someone sorts you out.

 

[West London Willy]

There's a process just starting for a new centrist party in the UK, looking at building on the shared ideals of all people. Called RENEW, it's being kicked off by Chris Coghlan, who stood as an Independent in the recent election in Battersea.

There's a questionnaire out that looks to gather as much input and feedback as possible, so that the direction of the party can reflect as many people and as many views as they can. If you have a few minutes, please take the time to click through, whatever your political position? The more feedback they get, the better.

https://renew.typeform.com/to/h7pR0D

 

[Stroller]

There's a process just starting for a new centrist party in the UK, looking at building on the shared ideals of all people. Called RENEW, it's being kicked off by Chris Coghlan, who stood as an Independent in the recent election in Battersea.

There's a questionnaire out that looks to gather as much input and feedback as possible, so that the direction of the party can reflect as many people and as many views as they can. If you have a few minutes, please take the time to click through, whatever your political position? The more feedback they get, the better.

https://renew.typeform.com/to/h7pR0D

Doesn't seems very centrist to me....

• Stop Brexit
• Fiscal stimulus (borrow to invest)
• Scrap tuition fees
• Universal basic income
• Renewable energy and green transportation
• Increase taxes to fund NHS

A mix of Labour, Lib Dem, and Green policies that I as a leftie would be happy to go along with. The cynic in me tells me it's a right-wing plot to take votes from Labour.

 

[West London Willy]

Doesn't seems very centrist to me....

• Stop Brexit
• Fiscal stimulus (borrow to invest)
• Scrap tuition fees
• Universal basic income
• Renewable energy and green transportation
• Increase taxes to fund NHS

A mix of Labour, Lib Dem, and Green policies that I'd be happy to go along with. The cynic in me tells me it's a right-wing plot to take votes from Labour.

My comments touched on a couple of specifics you mention:

Tuition fees - I suggested a 30/70 split with the student (who after all is still going to be the major beneficiary of their education) contributing 30% and the rest through sponsorship or taxation, with an element of means-testing in the mix. It's simply not fair to expect the poor to entirely pay through taxation for university education for those who can afford to pay, and who will then benefit through employment opportunities that remain closed to so many.

NHS - I don't think anyone believes that more money would be a bad thing, but we all know there's also a hugely bloated and overpaid management structure in the NHS that drains front-line care of cash. The two need to go hand in hand, otherwise any new money will simply get swallowed up.

Also, I've actually spoken with Chris. and - as far as it is possible to ascertain - this is not a right-wing plot. Chris was one of many independents up and down the country taking a centrist stance, where good ideas from the whole spectrum were reflected.

As for the EU, it stands to reason that a centre party would reject the Tory hard brexit stance, because the polls show that the vast majority want safeguards for our economy that this simply doesn't provide. Personally, I think that we need to go far softer on the exit than we are - I doubt that staying in is actually legally possible now.

 

[sb_73]

Doesn't seems very centrist to me....

• Stop Brexit
• Fiscal stimulus (borrow to invest)
• Scrap tuition fees
• Universal basic income
• Renewable energy and green transportation
• Increase taxes to fund NHS

A mix of Labour, Lib Dem, and Green policies that I as a leftie would be happy to go along with. The cynic in me tells me it's a right-wing plot to take votes from Labour.

It didn't work in Battersea, this bloke got 2.2% of the vote and Labour romped home with a massive swing from the Tories. He's got an interesting CV though. I would offer a warning to anyone wanting to follow the Macron route - he is already taking on distinctly regal airs and has a massive fight against the unions to 'liberalise' the French Labour market coming up.

My comments touched on a couple of specifics you mention:

Tuition fees - I suggested a 30/70 split with the student (who after all is still going to be the major beneficiary of their education) contributing 30% and the rest through sponsorship or taxation, with an element of means-testing in the mix. It's simply not fair to expect the poor to entirely pay through taxation for university education for those who can afford to pay, and who will then benefit through employment opportunities that remain closed to so many.

NHS - I don't think anyone believes that more money would be a bad thing, but we all know there's also a hugely bloated and overpaid management structure in the NHS that drains front-line care of cash. The two need to go hand in hand, otherwise any new money will simply get swallowed up.

Also, I've actually spoken with Chris. and - as far as it is possible to ascertain - this is not a right-wing plot. Chris was one of many independents up and down the country taking a centrist stance, where good ideas from the whole spectrum were reflected.

As for the EU, it stands to reason that a centre party would reject the Tory hard brexit stance, because the polls show that the vast majority want safeguards for our economy that this simply doesn't provide. Personally, I think that we need to go far softer on the exit than we are - I doubt that staying in is actually legally possible now.

The NHS needs big reform, but it is structural and workforce issues which hamstring it. Trite Daily Mail/UKIP sound bites about 'bloated' management are both wrong and divert from the real issues. On paper the NHS is the most efficient health system in the world, in terms of the % of GDP we spend on it in return for the outcomes it achieves (which are not as good as some places which spend more, but better than some as well). Many places could do with better management, but try running a radiology department or GP surgery, let alone a whole hospital, without managers. 4% of the NHS workforce are managers and administrators, as compared to 10% in the workforce as a whole. What would be a significant benefit, and saving in management costs,would be getting rid of the daft internal market we have been stuck with for 20 plus years. But apparently the electorate likes performance targets which are closely tied with this spurious contracting system. Here's some mythbusting info on NHS management:

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/fact-or-fiction-the-nhs-has-too-many-managers

While this bloke's intentions seem entirely laudable, and left of centre (unsurprising given he is ex Labour Party) I suspect a successful 'centrist' movement will have to come from the existing political classes rather than an entryist outsider. No judgement on the merits of either implied.

Why would it be illegal to stay in the EU? The Article 50 process can be stopped or paused at any time, if the EU agrees. The referendum wasn't even a binding one, the government just chose to interpret it as binding. I think all we need to do is say 'we've changed our minds, can we stay?'. Doubtless the EU would respond positively, but ask us to stay on rather different terms than before - an end to Thatcher's rebates, various opt outs and commitment to join the € amongst them. None of which would bother me, I'm an enthusiastic European, I would hope we would stay in as full and engaged members, helping to improve the EU (it needs improving) along with France and Germany, rather than being the reluctant 'what's in it for us' party poopers we have been for the last 40 years.

 

[Stroller]

An interesting analysis in the FT of the current jostling for position in the Tory party........

https://www.ft.com/content/02f15952...egmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

The poison is already running around the system. “We can work with half the Labour party and crush the ****ers,” says one Conservative MP, referring to his Eurosceptic colleagues. A leading pro-Brexit MP says he would not tolerate threats from the “****ers” on his party’s pro-European wing.

.........and a clever response from a reader

You must log in or register to see images

 

[seagullhoop]

NHS - I don't think anyone believes that more money would be a bad thing, but we all know there's also a hugely bloated and overpaid management structure in the NHS that drains front-line care of cash. The two need to go hand in hand, otherwise any new money will simply get swallowed up.
/QUOTE]

A summary from a Nuffield trust article into NHS management - this from 2015 is the most recent info I could find.

"The idea that the NHS employs an unjustifiably huge number of full-time managers is just wrong.

The savings from reducing their ranks would be small, and likely self-defeating if we went too fast. NHS trusts need people to analyse and make decisions. If they don’t have those people, they will hire some in as management consultants.

At the same time, it is certainly true that management and administration should be looked at critically, and there are opportunities to make savings in areas such as finance, other back office functions and clerical work caused by a reliance on paper records. There is also undoubtedly scope to improve administration. We must remember, though, that some of it is linked to those perennial political favourites, targets and competition.

There is a suspicion that blaming the problems of the NHS on management is an easy explanation that appeals to prejudices. It’s intellectually lazy, factually incorrect and misses some rather more challenging questions about the role and effectiveness of management and other more fundamental ways the NHS needs to change."

Link here: https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/fact-or-fiction-the-nhs-has-too-many-managers

 

[sb_73]

That's the link I posted Gully. Keep up.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

I see they have found out that Tony Blair was 'Not straight" with UK over Iraq.... 'Not straight'? He lied and everyone knows it. That slimy muppet cost many British and Iraq lives. He should have gone to prison for what he has done. What is also criminal is that Geoff Hoon sent our boys to war without the proper equipment then lied about it. People need to remember those brave soldiers had to share bullet proof vest and bullets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...h-inquest-death-amid-claims-new-evidence.html

This incident was sickening. Those Red caps didn't have enough ammo due to rationing. There was also the case of the shared bullet proof vest and on the specific day the soldier died, it was not his turn to wear it.
Thanks Tony Blair I hope one day someone sorts you out.

if that was put out on the BBC we'd hear howls about political bias. Now that it's that organ of truth, the Daily Mail, there is a deafening silence. Can someone please explain that to me? Blair believes what he says. He managed to persuade Chilcot that he was not lying but rather that as an advocate he knew how to make his case and did so with emotional conviction which persuaded the majority. Chilcot says he could have given more facts (which would have given a more balanced picture of the evidence) but seems to exonerate him of lying. He blames Blair's innate belief that he is always right. In other words arrogance. It's a fault that many developed. Margaret Thatcher being the other shining example and most recently Theresa May on the basis that she believed she could walk on water having won the leadership of the Tory party by keeping her trap shut while her opponents wiped each other out.

If only I'd kept my trap shut. Now that's a good soundbite. Perhaps she can use it on her comeback tour.

 

[Stroller]

Oh my Lord, there's some utter numbskull on QT representing Labour. Time to bring back some more able people.

Oh, by the way, this (BBC) audience is disgustingly right-wing. Nothing at all to do with the ability of the participants to advance their arguments.

 

[kiwiqpr]

what we need is a good plague

You must log in or register to see images

 

[Uber_Hoop]

what we need is a good plague

You must log in or register to see images

I thought we already had one... isn't it called Fundamentalist Islam?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Oh my Lord, there's some utter numbskull on QT representing Labour. Time to bring back some more able people.

Oh, by the way, this (BBC) audience is disgustingly right-wing. Nothing at all to do with the ability of the participants to advance their arguments.

Is there such a thing as disgustingly left wing too?

 

[sb_73]

Is there such a thing as disgustingly left wing too?

Momentum publishes a list of 49 Labour MPs it suggests should join the Liberal Democrats. These ****ers won't be happy until everybody not only says they agree with them but actually thinks like them, no diversity of thought allowed, toe the party line or suffer.

Pretty disgusting in my opinion.

You have a pretty worrying signature Ubes.