Indeed. Let's not forget that staying in the Single Market was a key offer in the Leave campaign.
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Indeed. Let's not forget that staying in the Single Market was a key offer in the Leave campaign.
150,000 is from a Civitas Report just written by senior immigration officials that worked for Theresa May.
"Inviting who we need etc" was my view and should be a red line in the negotiations
Offer by whom?... because Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Johnson all made it clear pre-referendum that Brexit meant leaving the Single Market
Farage, Hannan, Aaron Banks... repeated ad infinitum throughout the MSM that there was no way we should leave the Single Market and presented the Norway option as the ideal alternative to full EU membership.
I'm off to get the kids but I'll post some links when I get back.
I slightly struggle with the statement, 'we don't need'. Firstly, for the majority of the people fleeing their homelands, they are in desperate need of help, whether it be food, education, freedom or healthcare. To shut your doors to people because YOU (by which I mean the UK) don't need them, seems a bit insular. Also, the public services are propped up and run by people from all over the world, so I find it slightly ironic that the very people who make the public services work, are also those who are blamed for public services being under strain. Secondly, what if, worse case scenario, there came a time when the UK desperately needed outside help, and needed people to do jobs others didn't want to do, or bring much needed skills that are lacking in the UK? By such a time, many of the skilled workers will have been snapped up by other European countries, and the UK won't be able to recruit people with the needed skills.
I understand I am probably slightly confused in my opinion. On the one hand, I am British, and proud of it. On the other hand, I've lived in France for nearly seven years now, and seen an efficient system of social care and an unbelievably high standard of health care. The response from French people I speak to is that they usually laugh as they blurt out...'ah oui...le Brexit.' Europe will continue without Britain, and Britain will continue without Europe, but when the day comes, as it inevitably will, that Britain needs some help from Her closest neighbours, don't expect open arms welcoming you back.
I've posted those quotes many times, Seagull.
Goldie has a selective memory.
That's not true, Strolls. I replied that Farage, Hannan and Aaron Banks are not in government, unlike Cameron, Gove et all. It's like comparing a Conference League side with top of the Prem. You Remainers are constantly clutching at straws
Were I to read through all 578 pages of this particular thread, I reckon I'd end up with my brain melting and coming out of my ears. However, I'm feeling the urge to post my views - agree or disagree as you will, I doubt I'll have the energy to argue.
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As I see it, our position over the EU simply has to soften. Yes, we're leaving. We're pretty much legally bound to do so now that Article 50 has been triggered. So the focus has to be on doing it right. And yes, the most important aspect of the negotiations has to be economic. There are other key issues that need resolving, such as the NI/Republic border and how that works going forward. But economically, if we screw the economy because we (or the EU) are too bull-headed to make the proper compromises, we can't afford to make any of the other things work.
Ally that to the recent election. My main take on it (other than the Tory manifesto was crazy, and the Labour manifesto promised too many free sweeties to the kids) is that in areas where there was a strong Leave vote, the Conservatives did better than where there was a strong Remain vote. Labour benefited because often it's a straight choice between the two. I wouldn't read too much into the increased Labour vote other than that.
I think Theresa May simply HAS to listen to the moderates and approach the negotiations in a more conciliatory fashion. And she has to listen more, communicate more, and show her more human side on occasion. That doesn't mean she should have gone around hugging homeless people after Grenfell Tower (which was a bit pathetic of Corbyn really, however good a photo-op he thought it was) and it doesn't mean she gets dragged down into arguments with McDonnell and Abbott, whose blatant attempts to score party points on the backs of people's deaths are abhorrent. But she does need to demonstrate that she cares, whilst still doing the job she has (one I doubt anyone of a sane mind would envy her at the moment).
The other thing that I think needs to happen, in the media and with the population, is movement away from the extremes. We live in a very polarised society, with the hard right and the hard left dictating the agenda. That has to be countered by people in the centre, who understand the need to work together to build the nation up again. Who get it that some people have more than others, that some people get paid far more than others, and that being successful and wealthy isn't a crime. But with that privilege and success comes responsibility to those whose circumstances don't allow them the opportunities to manage on their own without assistance. So a government that caters for the needy in society whilst allowing the aspirations of people to succeed (both lifestyle-wise and financially). We're a way away from it at the moment, because the Lib Dems are failing to make anything really happen in that space. But I think it's coming, and that (for me) can only make our society more inclusive, more tolerant, and well, more British.
FOR INFORMATION: I voted for an independent candidate in the recent election, because I couldn't bring myself to actually vote for any of the main parties.
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As I see it, our position over the EU simply has to soften. Yes, we're leaving. We're pretty much legally bound to do so now that Article 50 has been triggered. So the focus has to be on doing it right. And yes, the most important aspect of the negotiations has to be economic. There are other key issues that need resolving, such as the NI/Republic border and how that works going forward. But economically, if we screw the economy because we (or the EU) are too bull-headed to make the proper compromises, we can't afford to make any of the other things work.
Ally that to the recent election. My main take on it (other than the Tory manifesto was crazy, and the Labour manifesto promised too many free sweeties to the kids) is that in areas where there was a strong Leave vote, the Conservatives did better than where there was a strong Remain vote. Labour benefited because often it's a straight choice between the two. I wouldn't read too much into the increased Labour vote other than that.
I think Theresa May simply HAS to listen to the moderates and approach the negotiations in a more conciliatory fashion. And she has to listen more, communicate more, and show her more human side on occasion. That doesn't mean she should have gone around hugging homeless people after Grenfell Tower (which was a bit pathetic of Corbyn really, however good a photo-op he thought it was) and it doesn't mean she gets dragged down into arguments with McDonnell and Abbott, whose blatant attempts to score party points on the backs of people's deaths are abhorrent. But she does need to demonstrate that she cares, whilst still doing the job she has (one I doubt anyone of a sane mind would envy her at the moment).
The other thing that I think needs to happen, in the media and with the population, is movement away from the extremes. We live in a very polarised society, with the hard right and the hard left dictating the agenda. That has to be countered by people in the centre, who understand the need to work together to build the nation up again. Who get it that some people have more than others, that some people get paid far more than others, and that being successful and wealthy isn't a crime. But with that privilege and success comes responsibility to those whose circumstances don't allow them the opportunities to manage on their own without assistance. So a government that caters for the needy in society whilst allowing the aspirations of people to succeed (both lifestyle-wise and financially). We're a way away from it at the moment, because the Lib Dems are failing to make anything really happen in that space. But I think it's coming, and that (for me) can only make our society more inclusive, more tolerant, and well, more British.
FOR INFORMATION: I voted for an independent candidate in the recent election, because I couldn't bring myself to actually vote for any of the main parties.
See my reply to Strolls. These are side players, not in government, indeed not even in Parliament!
That's not true, Strolls. I replied that Farage, Hannan and Aaron Banks are not in government, unlike Cameron, Gove et all. It's like comparing a Conference League side with top of the Prem. You Remainers are constantly clutching at straws
No one was listening to Farage then?
So far as refugees are concerned, Dave, the help we should give is in situ. I don't have a problem with overseas aid, so long as it is targeted and not abused by recipient governments. The open door policy can cause problems, at one extreme with integration - Muslim integration in some parts of the UK is almost non-existent - and at the other end of the extreme, it can lead to mass murder by jihadists as we saw in the London tube bombings, the Manchester concert, London Bridge, Westminster Bridge etc.
Public services - we should recruit whom we need - but bear in mind that all those that come in get old and ill too, so we need to find a policy that is sustainable for the long term future, otherwise we have an inverted pyramid of population increase (which is already running at huge levels)
EU - I see no reason why the rest of the EU should get the hump simply because we want to leave the club. We will be a good neighbour and co-operate on a reciprocal basis on important matters such as trade and security. What's not to like?
His bolt was shot when he got achieved the referendum. He wasn't part of the official Leave campaign. Farage, Hannan and Banks are all mavericks, and neither the government nor the official Leave campaign had any control over what they said.
EU Brexit team absolutely delighted to see Tories out-negotiated by DUP for a billion quid
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Brexit negotiators inside the EU could not be happier to see the UK government writing massive cheques when put under a little bit of pressure, according to sources in Brussels.
With the ink barely dry on a deal that will see the DUP get a billion pounds to spend in Northern Ireland, the EU has said there has never been a better time to sit down and negotiate a divorce with ‘that lot’.
An EU source told us, “To be fair, I’m not sure we can draw any particular lessons from this example; but if we could, it would be that the current UK government will write absolutely enormous cheques to anyone that demands one, if it means they get to stay in power – regardless of what is best for the country or its people.
“And that is a wonderful thing to know going into a complicated two-year negotiation which will certainly now involve the demand for an absolutely enormous cheque.
“The enormous British government sat around a table to negotiate a deal with the tiny DUP and ended up paying over a hundred million pounds for each of their MPs to vote in their support. And you people thought the EU was expensive.
“Well played DUP, well played.”
That's not true, Strolls. I replied that Farage, Hannan and Aaron Banks are not in government, unlike Cameron, Gove et all. It's like comparing a Conference League side with top of the Prem. You Remainers are constantly clutching at straws
Ultimately the question is why did people vote - there are many opinions, lots of 'suck it up, snowflake' type comments, but not much actual, evidence based academic analysis. Perhaps this is why people who are not as confident in their knowledge of what Brexit will actually bring are looking for reasons beyond the binary yes/no results to a more nuanced and reasoned understanding of what happened, why and where it will lead us.
Ultimately people voted for Brexit for a myriad of different reasons - but I find it slightly disingenuous to suggest that the repeated statements by well known individuals would have no effect on the way people voted. Most pertinently a party leader, Farage who, as a poster boy for Brexit enjoyed a disproportionate amount of airtime to make his case, especially considering his party had a single MP at the time (now none).
Anyway I am trying to have an open mind regarding Brexit, I think reasonable and courteous dialogue is preferable to petty, snarky comments.
What's the source of this, Strolls? It's not false news from the left-wing site you access, is it?
I am struggling to remember anyone trying very hard to contradict them though?
It's satirical, Goldie. It has a ring of truth about it, though, wouldn't you say?
http://newsthump.com/2017/06/26/eu-...ies-out-negotiated-by-dup-for-a-billion-quid/
If you recall, government and Vote Leave did their very best to distance themselves from Farage (May's government is doing that still). Some will have listened to Farage, I agree, but the message from the official stay and leave parties was that Brexit meant leaving the club entirely.
I struggle to believe that many voted to leave the EU, believing we'd only be leaving a small part of it, and still be governed by its rules and law makers.
