Off Topic The Politics Thread
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FFS!
Anyone would think that this Country has never been able to stand on its own two feet without the EU.
That's not the point, Col. A lot of people were talking about Brexit being the forerunner of right-wing populist triumphs elsewhere, which thankfully (from my point of view) haven't happened.
Trump can be explained away as right wing populism. Brexit cannot - a large part of the North of England voted Brexit, and that region is not a hot-bed of right wing extremism.
Having just reread 1984 I may well be hypersensitive to manipulation of facts, but I have just read some disturbing stuff from Michael Fallon (a figure of increasing morbid fascination to me). He said, in an interview with Andrew Marr, that the Government promises to make sure that the army would be built up to 82,000 by 2020, as pledged in the 2015 Tory manifesto. In fact that manifesto promised not to let numbers of soldiers fall below 82,000 during the lifetime of the current government. Currently there are less than 80,000 full time soldiers, due to retention and recruitment problems (apparently budgets for training and exercises which are needed to keep soldiers capable and motivated have been cut, and so more than expected are leaving, out of boredom I suppose). But not according to Fallon, who says we are recruiting 'more' regular soldiers and reservists. Unfortunately his own department's figures show that the army fell 2,600 short of the 9,580 recruitment target.
It really is incredibly tedious and tiring not to be able to trust a single word these ****s say. The sheer contempt in which they hold us, the arrogance of imagining that something will be taken as true because they say it out loud on the telly, and the terrifying possibility that some, perhaps most, people will actually believe it because it comes from our government, who represent us, and they (rightly) don't think it's their job to assume they are being lied to all the time, fills me with despair. I know it's not new or confined to Tory governments, but do I really have to fact check everything? Though I suppose now there are no trusted, objective, sources of information it really doesn't matter, we can believe whatever we want and whatever reinforces our existing beliefs. The one bright spot is that the powers do not actually control the past yet, however much they want to, so they can be challenged, even though it will be a waste of time to do so. Because they have no shame in being caught lying, it's just expediency for them.
I know that if I resorted to lying like this at my work, I would pretty soon have to resign before I was sacked, because my actions have consequences (however insignificant in the grand scheme of things) and my colleagues and ultimately customers have to be able to trust me. Why this doesn't apply to Fallon and his ilk, and how he can look at himself in the mirror, is beyond me. The most scary possibility is that he actually believes what he said, in a classic exercise of doublethink.
Big Mother is watching you.
It really is incredibly tedious and tiring not to be able to trust a single word these ****s say. The sheer contempt in which they hold us, the arrogance of imagining that something will be taken as true because they say it out loud on the telly, and the terrifying possibility that some, perhaps most, people will actually believe it because it comes from our government, who represent us, and they (rightly) don't think it's their job to assume they are being lied to all the time, fills me with despair. I know it's not new or confined to Tory governments, but do I really have to fact check everything? Though I suppose now there are no trusted, objective, sources of information it really doesn't matter, we can believe whatever we want and whatever reinforces our existing beliefs. The one bright spot is that the powers do not actually control the past yet, however much they want to, so they can be challenged, even though it will be a waste of time to do so. Because they have no shame in being caught lying, it's just expediency for them.
I know that if I resorted to lying like this at my work, I would pretty soon have to resign before I was sacked, because my actions have consequences (however insignificant in the grand scheme of things) and my colleagues and ultimately customers have to be able to trust me. Why this doesn't apply to Fallon and his ilk, and how he can look at himself in the mirror, is beyond me. The most scary possibility is that he actually believes what he said, in a classic exercise of doublethink.
Big Mother is watching you.
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That's a new one on me, Watford. The Brexit vote in the North of England was an anti Cameron vote. It doesn't explain why Theresa May is riding high in the polls up there after embracing Brexit.
That, I agree, would be motivation enough to vote Brexit. Workers coming from Eastern Europe, living 5 to a room, undercutting the market (because in Romania, £3.50 an hour is a good wage) and then sending their wages home.
Whoever is paying anyone, of whatever nationality, £3.50 an hour in this country should be sent to prison. And anyway, if you look at the demographics of these bastions of Brexit in the North, like Scunthorpe or Burnley, they have very few EU migrants. They are just **** places and many of the people living there hate their lives, and they were told that by voting Leave their lot would quickly improve, and all the foreigners they have never met would go home. That's my impression anyway.
Totally unrelated I would just like to register my appreciation of Jeremy Bowen, a real journalist who has spent a staggering 25 years as BBC correspondent in the Middle East. He not only frequently puts himself in harms way, he never oversimplifies or dumbs down the complexity of what he is covering and seems to really care about the region. Top man.
£3.50 goes a long way in poorer countries. Some years ago, I had the house decorated by a very nice Polish bloke who was a fully qualified psychiatrist! The English decorators all quoted for expensive scaffolding (health and safety). Lucas and his men kept costs low by using ladders. They did a good job, I took the benefit, but I can understand local decorators who have a family and a mortgage to pay being p*ssed off.
Agree about Jeremy Bowen. His reports are always incisive and worth listening to. He must live out of a suitcase.
If British tradesmen didn't so routinely take the piss with their clients, there would have been a far smaller gap in the market for foreign labour.
Some may take the piss, and I'm certainly in favour of competition on a level playing field - but the majority suffer because they have to compete with workers who come from a different, and vastly inferior economy, and can undercut the market.
I hope you are fully self aware of the hypocrisy exposed by that post Goldie! I have a Victorian terraced money pit and have spent a fortune on trades over the last few years. 95% of them have been English (excellent Lithuanian decorator) and nearly all have been superb. They observe health and safety and the first thing I ask about is their insurance so if one of them falls off the roof I am not liable, and to ensure that they will have some cash if I have to sue them. In my experience EU competition has made the locals up their game.
If a group of Polish decorators quote for a job that's a bit different to an employer paying someone £3.50 an hour, which is illegal. £3.50 may go a long way in Romania (it doesn't in Poland, the Czech Republic or Lithuania in my experience), but the person owning it still has to live in England, where it is a pittance. As it the 'living' wage come to that.
Orwell was years ahead of the game in anticipating what is coming, and reading his stuff can certainly lead to some form of paranoia, but, as Kurt Cobain once sang, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you!
It certainly is galling the amount of lies all the parties are peddling out during this campaign, and it's becoming increasingly more difficult to find the truth amongst all the bullshit spouting out of their mouths. Still over three weeks of this to go, and I'm no wiser as to who to vote for....
I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy, Stan. This was ten years ago and I wasn't really aware of the problem. It's what I would do now that's the interesting question. I'm not sure! The fact is that the consumer can benefit from the undercutting, unless the consumer also works in areas being undercut.
Your experience is heartening and of course I'm all for upping the game. The problem with the minimum living wage is that it only affects the lowest paid. A decent gardener in Sussex will charge £18.00 per hour. That's with mowing, hedge cutting, tree cutting specialities etc If a Romanian gardener comes to England (sharing a house with 8 other Romanians to cut down costs) and offers the same service for £12 per hour, it's good money for him, a saving for the householder, but bad news for the indigenous gardener who loses the work.
The problem is markedly different standards of living in the two economies. When we entered the Common Market, workers came from France and Germany etc and there was little difference. The entry of the ex-communist countries has made the difference, and if you're looking for reasons for Brexit, this is one of them.
It's a bit of a cliche to say they all live 8 to a room, Goldie. I know plenty of Eastern European families - all of who live in a normal house, pay taxes and behave just like we do in England. Their children look, sound and of course are English - because these families integrate well. They should have put migration limitations on new entry countries until their standard of living came up to scratch - i do agree with you on that - because of a lot of it is perception.
As for British workmen - if they are honest, hard working and punctual - then they have nothing to fear from competition. People will always get people in they know on reputation - its the dishonest, lazy bodgers who are losing out, and they should look in the mirror rather than to petty nationalism for their pains.
Fair comment, Tooting. Probably both are true. There are plenty of examples of men leaving their families to live in poor conditions to get a better wage than in their home countries. But there are also those who have a high enough standard of living already to pay London residential rates. And I agree that the European families by and large integrate well, although there are some areas in England, eg around Cambridge where the majority of the population are Polish, and local shops and language is Polish. Too much change for the indigenous population in one abrupt go.
Tony Blair complains about Brexit, but his ridiculous unlimited numbers immigration policy was fuel to its fire.