Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Surely what we have put on the table is a proposal for how we leave. Nothing is set in stone forever so can be changed at any time and help us to move further to full independence in a less chaotic and uncertain way. I don't see the problem with it.
I think we have decided to tie how we leave with what the future relationship looks like, which is the root of the current impasse. Apparently 80% of how we leave is agreed, just the Irish border (though I have no idea how this can be sorted) to do, and then we were supposed use the transition period to negotiate the future relationship. For some reason our government does not want to follow a logical, step by step approach though.

We are running out of time now, unless something changes there will be nothing for the various parliaments of the 28 to ratify.
 
Yes, this is the view of people like Michael Gove and Liam Fox. It's a fair view so long as the EU don't try to force more material compromises - which they will!
Liam Fox? Did I tell you I actually think this proposal is ridiculous and only a moron could back it? <whistle>
 
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It’s not a perfect compromise, but no compromise ever is. It’s relatively quick, easy and could be acceptable to a decent majority. Are you prepared to move at all in order to allay the fears and concerns of the 48%?

Let’s be clear about the trade deals. We already trade with all of the countries we want to have deals with, so treaties would be % changes, not new huge markets (just like our trade with the EU won’t stop). Some, like USA, China and India explicitly want to export more to us and in terms of goods and food, which, though they might be cheaper, this would require us lowering our existing standards and regulations. We want deals to sell services to them, because that is the majority of our economy. If successful this will not directly benefit those leave heartlands voters, unless more tax is collected and it’s put into welfare programmes. I presume recognition of this % game this is why Rees Mogg says it will take 50 years to get a net economic positive result.

I read the other day that under existing arrangements it takes 2 minutes for a truck to clear customs at Dover. It is very conservatively estimated that WTO rules would double this, to 4 minutes. This results in a pretty instant 17 mile lorry park on the M20, which is not only inconvenient and irritating for all those involved but a big dent in productivity for the companies trying to move stuff around. The answer is to employ more customs officers and build the infrastructure to give them somewhere to work. This costs public money, taxpayers money, or increased public borrowing. We will also have to create brand new medicines, air travel, food standards etc regulatory and inspection institutions, none of which add to the nations wealth. We already know that the ‘Brexit dividend’ will be eaten up paying for the things like farm subsidies that currently come from the EU budget. I am really struggling to see how any of this makes us better off.

There's a real need for the government to set out for the public objectively and fairly what the consequences of WTO are, with no project fear, bringing in the army, allowing in BSE and gonorrhea etc. They say they are doing that. There's a real deal to do with the US. If they sell us chlorinated chicken fine - people will buy it because it's safer than the disease covered birds that are stocked in our supermarkets now.

I understand that tariffs can be applied by computer rather than stopping each lorry. Again, we need to the detail. May doesn't seem to want to say much because she wants her deal to the only thing the British public can choose (and we know we're going to have to give more ground, which isn't acceptable). I believe there will be a Brexit dividend once the interim arrangements involved in coming out of the EU are over.
 
Fair points..........but still the exploitation of cheap labour doesn’t sit right with me.

Fact of life sadly take any industry and the largest overhead is labour .. the bar has been set in terms of profits from a small veg grower to a large corporation. I would stamp it out by that's modern business life in the biggest shop in Europe. UK shoppers don't care much more than price first on any product .. it's the fundamental principle of modern marketing ... i should know i dream up ways to make products look good every day to the bastards for the sillier bastards. The same bastards that then delay paying me for making their products sell.

That is why i am a grumpy old git
 
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Oh Ellers, it's not like you to jump to conclusions and try to find an unfounded easy insult as a substitute for a reasoned discussion with points that mean something.

(and that IS an example of using irony...)
You better get back to your book mate. :emoticon-0148-yes:
right that's it for a bit chaps as I am in Cannes and want to spend a few days before football season starts. Enjoy the sun...it's 37 degrees here:emoticon-0101-sadsm
 
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You better get back to your book mate. :emoticon-0148-yes:
right that's it for a bit chaps as I am in Cannes and want to spend a few days before football season starts. Enjoy the sun...it's 37 degrees here:emoticon-0101-sadsm

Have a great holiday Ellers you are certainly getting around 39 here cooler a bit for a change temps hit 45 where I am Friday
Get the Languedoc son
 
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Fact of life sadly take any industry and the largest overhead is labour .. the bar has been set in terms of profits from a small veg grower to a large corporation. I would stamp it out by that's modern business life in the biggest shop in Europe. UK shoppers don't care much more than price first on any product .. it's the fundamental principle of modern marketing ... i should know i dream up ways to make products look good every day to the bastards for the sillier bastards. The same bastards that then delay paying me for making their products sell.

That is why i am a grumpy old git
I like the reassuringly expensive stuff myself.
 
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The Remainer
politics of fear has become unhinged
Brendan O’Neill
Editor
This contemptuous elite wants to panic the public into submission.
I
30 July 2018
In the two years since I put my cross next to Leave, nothing has convinced me of the rightness of that vote more than the hysterical fearmongering coming from the Remain camp right now.
For this outburst of Brexit Derangement Syndrome, this attempt to beat the populace into EU-accepting submission by warning us that our children might starve and our loved ones with diabetes might die if we ‘crash out’ of the EU, confirms the contempt in which the political class holds the public. It confirms that they see us, not as citizens to be engaged with, but as overgrown children to be panicked and cajoled into accepting that the adults – them – know what is best for society. This Project Fear could backfire badly, by showing Brexit voters that they were dead right to view the technocratic elite as a contemptuous class, and dead right to vote against it in the referendum.

I can’t remember a time when the elitist politics of fear has been as cynically wielded as it has been over the past week. It wasn’t even this bad when schoolkids of my generation were made to watch The Day After, a nuclear-disaster movie in which a wholesome American family slowly die from radiation after the Soviets go mental and bomb the US. Also, at least that dread-laden propaganda was only designed to make us fear the Ruskies – the even more unhinged Project Fear of elitist Remoaners is an attempt to make us fear ourselves and our friends and family and our collective electoral stupidity that has allegedly propelled Britain to the brink of ‘self-immolation’, in the words of the increasingly bizarre figure of David Lammy, the Member of Parliament for Brussels.
Every day the fearful propaganda intensifies. One wakes wondering what unearthly horror our vote against the EU 25 months ago might now have unleashed. Gonorrhoea is the latest. If we leave the EU with No Deal, Britain will apparently become a 15th-century-style hotbed of such sexual malaise. ‘Brexit could lead to spread of infectious diseases such as super-gonorrhoea’, says a headline in the London Evening Standard, which was once a newspaper but is now a score-settling sheet for its current editor: arch Remainer and former chancellor George Osborne, who we turfed out of office with our vote for Brexit. Medical officials fear that a shortage of medicine in the event of No Deal will mean we won’t be able to treat knob rot. It’s almost Biblical. ‘Defy me and your genitals shall wither.’ Up next: plagues of locusts? Floods?

Yes, floods. Brexit could ‘water down [the UK’s] environment laws’, says a piece in the Guardian, complete with a photo of a flooded English village. We could see more ‘severe flash floods’ if we leave the EU without boosting eco-laws. Perhaps we should build arks, get some animals on board? If you don’t drown, you might be poisoned. If there’s No Deal, Britain will become a ‘dumping ground for chemicals’, claim green groups. There won’t be much food, either. Remoaners are stoking up fears of food shortages if we change our trade arrangements with the EU. Because we will struggle to import ingredients and therefore won’t be able to make bread and other essentials. Why won’t be able to do this? They never say. They just know starvation is on the cards.
In the words of chief Remoaner Alastair Campbell, ‘No deal Brexit means no food Brexit and no medicines Brexit…’. Imagine being Alastair Campbell. Imagine giving the green light to the destruction of a foreign country and the deaths of tens of thousands of people in the name of delivering democracy, only to decide 15 years later that you don’t believe in democracy after all and so you devote your entire life to overthrowing the largest democratic vote in British history. Scientists should study Mr Campbell to discover how such a human being manages to sleep at night. Also, no one is saying there will be ‘no food’ after Brexit. Campbell is lying now as surely as he was when he said Saddam could bomb Britain in 45 minutes.

And then there will be the medicine shortages. We will run out of drugs and people will die. They’re literally saying this. The head of output at Channel 4 News says a No Deal Brexit threatens the supply of insulin from the EU to the UK. ‘What are the government going to do to prevent type-1 diabetics dying?’, he asks. Erm, make a deal with an insulin-producing European country? Or import insulin from the US or India? This is a minor practical matter transformed by vested-interest Remoaners into a terrifying tale of diabetic death. They are happy to panic diabetes sufferers, to lower the quality of life of people with diabetes right now by telling them they might die soon, in the name of wounding Brexit. Such reckless cynicism.
Perhaps a tiny bit sensitive to how crazy they sound, the Remoaner set now say, ‘This isn’t Project Fear because this is all coming from the government itself!’. What they mean is that it is government officials who are raising the possibility of Britain having to stockpile food and medicine in preparation for No Deal. That’s kind of true. But there are two things to say here. First, the government is mainly talking about practical contingency efforts; it is Remoaners who then turn this discussion into a weapon of doom to use against the entire idea of leaving the EU. And secondly, and more importantly, the government itself is quite consciously, and happily, contributing to Remoaners’ fearful script. Our Remainer-led government is feeding the fantasies of the Remoaner elite precisely in an effort to create such a climate of panic that more people will back Theresa May’s anti-Brexit Chequers proposal. This unity of foul purpose between the government and the government’s ostensible critics will be taken as further proof by Brexit voters that the political class is no longer fit for purpose.
Nothing in this low enterprise tells us Brexit is a bad idea. On the contrary, the idea that EU nations would withhold life-saving medicine from Brits simply because we want to leave the union only confirms what a ruthless bureaucracy now rules Europe. And our own political class’s use of fear to try to cow the public and make us give up on our democratic aspirations only confirms how disdainful they have become. In short, this latest outing for Project Fear makes Brexit look more attractive than ever. Let’s leave the EU. As soon as humanly possible.
Brendan O’Neill is editor of spiked. Find him on Instagram: @burntoakboy
 
You must log in or register to see images

The Remainer
politics of fear has become unhinged
Brendan O’Neill
Editor
This contemptuous elite wants to panic the public into submission.
I
30 July 2018
In the two years since I put my cross next to Leave, nothing has convinced me of the rightness of that vote more than the hysterical fearmongering coming from the Remain camp right now.
For this outburst of Brexit Derangement Syndrome, this attempt to beat the populace into EU-accepting submission by warning us that our children might starve and our loved ones with diabetes might die if we ‘crash out’ of the EU, confirms the contempt in which the political class holds the public. It confirms that they see us, not as citizens to be engaged with, but as overgrown children to be panicked and cajoled into accepting that the adults – them – know what is best for society. This Project Fear could backfire badly, by showing Brexit voters that they were dead right to view the technocratic elite as a contemptuous class, and dead right to vote against it in the referendum.

I can’t remember a time when the elitist politics of fear has been as cynically wielded as it has been over the past week. It wasn’t even this bad when schoolkids of my generation were made to watch The Day After, a nuclear-disaster movie in which a wholesome American family slowly die from radiation after the Soviets go mental and bomb the US. Also, at least that dread-laden propaganda was only designed to make us fear the Ruskies – the even more unhinged Project Fear of elitist Remoaners is an attempt to make us fear ourselves and our friends and family and our collective electoral stupidity that has allegedly propelled Britain to the brink of ‘self-immolation’, in the words of the increasingly bizarre figure of David Lammy, the Member of Parliament for Brussels.
Every day the fearful propaganda intensifies. One wakes wondering what unearthly horror our vote against the EU 25 months ago might now have unleashed. Gonorrhoea is the latest. If we leave the EU with No Deal, Britain will apparently become a 15th-century-style hotbed of such sexual malaise. ‘Brexit could lead to spread of infectious diseases such as super-gonorrhoea’, says a headline in the London Evening Standard, which was once a newspaper but is now a score-settling sheet for its current editor: arch Remainer and former chancellor George Osborne, who we turfed out of office with our vote for Brexit. Medical officials fear that a shortage of medicine in the event of No Deal will mean we won’t be able to treat knob rot. It’s almost Biblical. ‘Defy me and your genitals shall wither.’ Up next: plagues of locusts? Floods?

Yes, floods. Brexit could ‘water down [the UK’s] environment laws’, says a piece in the Guardian, complete with a photo of a flooded English village. We could see more ‘severe flash floods’ if we leave the EU without boosting eco-laws. Perhaps we should build arks, get some animals on board? If you don’t drown, you might be poisoned. If there’s No Deal, Britain will become a ‘dumping ground for chemicals’, claim green groups. There won’t be much food, either. Remoaners are stoking up fears of food shortages if we change our trade arrangements with the EU. Because we will struggle to import ingredients and therefore won’t be able to make bread and other essentials. Why won’t be able to do this? They never say. They just know starvation is on the cards.
In the words of chief Remoaner Alastair Campbell, ‘No deal Brexit means no food Brexit and no medicines Brexit…’. Imagine being Alastair Campbell. Imagine giving the green light to the destruction of a foreign country and the deaths of tens of thousands of people in the name of delivering democracy, only to decide 15 years later that you don’t believe in democracy after all and so you devote your entire life to overthrowing the largest democratic vote in British history. Scientists should study Mr Campbell to discover how such a human being manages to sleep at night. Also, no one is saying there will be ‘no food’ after Brexit. Campbell is lying now as surely as he was when he said Saddam could bomb Britain in 45 minutes.

And then there will be the medicine shortages. We will run out of drugs and people will die. They’re literally saying this. The head of output at Channel 4 News says a No Deal Brexit threatens the supply of insulin from the EU to the UK. ‘What are the government going to do to prevent type-1 diabetics dying?’, he asks. Erm, make a deal with an insulin-producing European country? Or import insulin from the US or India? This is a minor practical matter transformed by vested-interest Remoaners into a terrifying tale of diabetic death. They are happy to panic diabetes sufferers, to lower the quality of life of people with diabetes right now by telling them they might die soon, in the name of wounding Brexit. Such reckless cynicism.
Perhaps a tiny bit sensitive to how crazy they sound, the Remoaner set now say, ‘This isn’t Project Fear because this is all coming from the government itself!’. What they mean is that it is government officials who are raising the possibility of Britain having to stockpile food and medicine in preparation for No Deal. That’s kind of true. But there are two things to say here. First, the government is mainly talking about practical contingency efforts; it is Remoaners who then turn this discussion into a weapon of doom to use against the entire idea of leaving the EU. And secondly, and more importantly, the government itself is quite consciously, and happily, contributing to Remoaners’ fearful script. Our Remainer-led government is feeding the fantasies of the Remoaner elite precisely in an effort to create such a climate of panic that more people will back Theresa May’s anti-Brexit Chequers proposal. This unity of foul purpose between the government and the government’s ostensible critics will be taken as further proof by Brexit voters that the political class is no longer fit for purpose.
Nothing in this low enterprise tells us Brexit is a bad idea. On the contrary, the idea that EU nations would withhold life-saving medicine from Brits simply because we want to leave the union only confirms what a ruthless bureaucracy now rules Europe. And our own political class’s use of fear to try to cow the public and make us give up on our democratic aspirations only confirms how disdainful they have become. In short, this latest outing for Project Fear makes Brexit look more attractive than ever. Let’s leave the EU. As soon as humanly possible.
Brendan O’Neill is editor of spiked. Find him on Instagram: @burntoakboy

**** reading that bollocks. I’ll just wait for Ellers’ post-wine rant.
 
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The Remainer
politics of fear has become unhinged
Brendan O’Neill
Editor
This contemptuous elite wants to panic the public into submission.
I
30 July 2018
In the two years since I put my cross next to Leave, nothing has convinced me of the rightness of that vote more than the hysterical fearmongering coming from the Remain camp right now.
For this outburst of Brexit Derangement Syndrome, this attempt to beat the populace into EU-accepting submission by warning us that our children might starve and our loved ones with diabetes might die if we ‘crash out’ of the EU, confirms the contempt in which the political class holds the public. It confirms that they see us, not as citizens to be engaged with, but as overgrown children to be panicked and cajoled into accepting that the adults – them – know what is best for society. This Project Fear could backfire badly, by showing Brexit voters that they were dead right to view the technocratic elite as a contemptuous class, and dead right to vote against it in the referendum.

I can’t remember a time when the elitist politics of fear has been as cynically wielded as it has been over the past week. It wasn’t even this bad when schoolkids of my generation were made to watch The Day After, a nuclear-disaster movie in which a wholesome American family slowly die from radiation after the Soviets go mental and bomb the US. Also, at least that dread-laden propaganda was only designed to make us fear the Ruskies – the even more unhinged Project Fear of elitist Remoaners is an attempt to make us fear ourselves and our friends and family and our collective electoral stupidity that has allegedly propelled Britain to the brink of ‘self-immolation’, in the words of the increasingly bizarre figure of David Lammy, the Member of Parliament for Brussels.
Every day the fearful propaganda intensifies. One wakes wondering what unearthly horror our vote against the EU 25 months ago might now have unleashed. Gonorrhoea is the latest. If we leave the EU with No Deal, Britain will apparently become a 15th-century-style hotbed of such sexual malaise. ‘Brexit could lead to spread of infectious diseases such as super-gonorrhoea’, says a headline in the London Evening Standard, which was once a newspaper but is now a score-settling sheet for its current editor: arch Remainer and former chancellor George Osborne, who we turfed out of office with our vote for Brexit. Medical officials fear that a shortage of medicine in the event of No Deal will mean we won’t be able to treat knob rot. It’s almost Biblical. ‘Defy me and your genitals shall wither.’ Up next: plagues of locusts? Floods?

Yes, floods. Brexit could ‘water down [the UK’s] environment laws’, says a piece in the Guardian, complete with a photo of a flooded English village. We could see more ‘severe flash floods’ if we leave the EU without boosting eco-laws. Perhaps we should build arks, get some animals on board? If you don’t drown, you might be poisoned. If there’s No Deal, Britain will become a ‘dumping ground for chemicals’, claim green groups. There won’t be much food, either. Remoaners are stoking up fears of food shortages if we change our trade arrangements with the EU. Because we will struggle to import ingredients and therefore won’t be able to make bread and other essentials. Why won’t be able to do this? They never say. They just know starvation is on the cards.
In the words of chief Remoaner Alastair Campbell, ‘No deal Brexit means no food Brexit and no medicines Brexit…’. Imagine being Alastair Campbell. Imagine giving the green light to the destruction of a foreign country and the deaths of tens of thousands of people in the name of delivering democracy, only to decide 15 years later that you don’t believe in democracy after all and so you devote your entire life to overthrowing the largest democratic vote in British history. Scientists should study Mr Campbell to discover how such a human being manages to sleep at night. Also, no one is saying there will be ‘no food’ after Brexit. Campbell is lying now as surely as he was when he said Saddam could bomb Britain in 45 minutes.

And then there will be the medicine shortages. We will run out of drugs and people will die. They’re literally saying this. The head of output at Channel 4 News says a No Deal Brexit threatens the supply of insulin from the EU to the UK. ‘What are the government going to do to prevent type-1 diabetics dying?’, he asks. Erm, make a deal with an insulin-producing European country? Or import insulin from the US or India? This is a minor practical matter transformed by vested-interest Remoaners into a terrifying tale of diabetic death. They are happy to panic diabetes sufferers, to lower the quality of life of people with diabetes right now by telling them they might die soon, in the name of wounding Brexit. Such reckless cynicism.
Perhaps a tiny bit sensitive to how crazy they sound, the Remoaner set now say, ‘This isn’t Project Fear because this is all coming from the government itself!’. What they mean is that it is government officials who are raising the possibility of Britain having to stockpile food and medicine in preparation for No Deal. That’s kind of true. But there are two things to say here. First, the government is mainly talking about practical contingency efforts; it is Remoaners who then turn this discussion into a weapon of doom to use against the entire idea of leaving the EU. And secondly, and more importantly, the government itself is quite consciously, and happily, contributing to Remoaners’ fearful script. Our Remainer-led government is feeding the fantasies of the Remoaner elite precisely in an effort to create such a climate of panic that more people will back Theresa May’s anti-Brexit Chequers proposal. This unity of foul purpose between the government and the government’s ostensible critics will be taken as further proof by Brexit voters that the political class is no longer fit for purpose.
Nothing in this low enterprise tells us Brexit is a bad idea. On the contrary, the idea that EU nations would withhold life-saving medicine from Brits simply because we want to leave the union only confirms what a ruthless bureaucracy now rules Europe. And our own political class’s use of fear to try to cow the public and make us give up on our democratic aspirations only confirms how disdainful they have become. In short, this latest outing for Project Fear makes Brexit look more attractive than ever. Let’s leave the EU. As soon as humanly possible.
Brendan O’Neill is editor of spiked. Find him on Instagram: @burntoakboy
Aah, spiked, the successor magazine to Living Marxism, where the far anti state left meets the loony libertarian right in an orgy of nihilism. Outstanding find Kiwi.
 
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