Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought your 'why should...' phrase was more general than learning a language as an adult. I was living in Hong Kong mate, there would be very little motivation to learn Cantonese elsewhere. Sadly I have very little facility with languages other than the willingness to have a go. The fact that I have forgotten nearly all my Cantonese, and my Italian which used to be OK is now extremely ropey through lack of use, is testimony to that. No one can be forced to learn anything, but they can be incentivised to. The bar for citizenship should be set high regarding language in my view.

Let's face it, this is, as Uber pointed out, primarily an issue for Muslim women, especially those from poor and strictly religious families. Even Cameron understands this. They may have the ability to learn, but they are denied the opportunity by the ignorance of their culture.


Did I miss a news story about swans? Please enlighten me.

Your common ground argument is a good one, though it tends to treasure homogeneity, which I am personally not so interested in. We are in a new situation, because of the numbers of new immigrants, the speed with which they are arriving and the impact they have on the localities where they live, particularly public services. In the past I would have said give it a generation, these will be valuable members of society - I remember the concern when we took in thousands of Ugandan Asians (one of our finest hours in my opinion), who singles them out now? Historically the majority of immigrants have been highly motivated to get on, and to do that they do well in education and 'integrate'. I don't need them to 'assimilate' i.e. forget their heritage entirely. Some groups, like the ultra Orthodox Jews of Stamford Brook (just about the poorest and worst educated community in the country, apparently), never integrate. Religion is always at the root of it, and you know my views on that. As long as the numbers are very small, it's of their own free will and they don't harm the rest of us, it's tragic for them in my view but I can live with it.

Your original point that we have a particular problem with Muslims is the issue for me. The EU migrants will either eventually integrate or take the cash and go home. Presumably leaving the EU (as I suspect we have to) will sort this, though we will need to find workers for certain jobs from somewhere. Many (but far from all) Muslim communities seem to lack the traditional migrant qualities of hard work and ambition and remain in poverty and ignorance for generations, even if they speak English. It's the ****ing religion. I have no idea how to tackle it, and it's driving me mad.

For people already here, for most the answer is time, which is testing for our patience. Otherwise I think we are justified in saying that the intensity of the debate about immigration as well as the impact allows us to place stringent tests and limits on new immigration. These would apply to the French as well as Nigerians. You have to have confirmed work before you come here, on a fixed term contract, and a ticket home. Getting citizenship through 'naturalisation' I.e time served, no longer works. Dual citizenship for only a very limited list of other countries, if any. Only citizens, or people who will not draw a state pension, can retire in the UK. Clear, strict and enforced visa requirements. Etc etc

I hate all of these things of course. This is a really challenging topic for me. All my instincts say one thing but I can't pretend there isn't a very real and very divisive problem, and I don't believe it is driven by racism and xenophobia in the most part. But the language and vitriol with which some of the views are expressed, including on this thread, sparks a knee jerk reaction in me.

Sorry for the long ramble.

'It's the ****ing religion' just about sums it up for me.

 

[Chaz]

'It's the ****ing religion' just about sums it up for me.

But it shouldn't be.

If you actually look at the texts, there's nothing in Islam that dictates that Muslims should segregate themselves. There's nothing that in any way endorses terrorism, or abuse of non-Muslims, and certainly nothing that says that you shouldn't strive to communicate with those around you.

What the issue is, I feel, is people's interpretation of their religion, and the way that too many people - of all faiths - try to fit what they want to do into some kind of framework and prop the whole thing up with a Religion tag. It harms all religions when they do this.

My opinion, for what it's worth: At the end of the day, faith - real faith - is very different from religion, which is simply a box man has created to put their faith in and define it - and sadly used to try and justify their actions. Everyone does this to some degree, and what gets noticed are the people who put their faith in a well-armed, armour-plated box, or a gold-plated, clearly expensive box, instead of a simple transparent bag that's easy to examine and hides nothing. Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? The cup of a carpenter was very simple. All the complex, confrontational, ostentatious, objectionable stuff we've put there ourselves. And if people wonder why sensible level headed chaps like you, Stroller, feel the way you do - well, we probably need to wonder how and when we built such an unattractive box around ourselves....

 

[Stroller]

But it shouldn't be.

If you actually look at the texts, there's nothing in Islam that dictates that Muslims should segregate themselves. There's nothing that in any way endorses terrorism, or abuse of non-Muslims, and certainly nothing that says that you shouldn't strive to communicate with those around you.

What the issue is, I feel, is people's interpretation of their religion, and the way that too many people - of all faiths - try to fit what they want to do into some kind of framework and prop the whole thing up with a Religion tag. It harms all religions when they do this.

My opinion, for what it's worth: At the end of the day, faith - real faith - is very different from religion, which is simply a box man has created to put their faith in and define it - and sadly used to try and justify their actions. Everyone does this to some degree, and what gets noticed are the people who put their faith in a well-armed, armour-plated box, or a gold-plated, clearly expensive box, instead of a simple transparent bag that's easy to examine and hides nothing. Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? The cup of a carpenter was very simple. All the complex, confrontational, ostentatious, objectionable stuff we've put there ourselves. And if people wonder why sensible level headed chaps like you, Stroller, feel the way you do - well, we probably need to wonder how and when we built such an unattractive box around ourselves....

**** me Chaz, I think I might agree with you. I don't have a problem with any individual's faith. I may disagree with them, but they are perfectly entitled to believe whatever they like. It's when organised religion gets involved and makes demands upon me to 'respect' it that I start to have a problem. Islam is a major problem in this country if you ask me, and whilst I detest all forms of racism, sexism, homophobia etc, I think that it is a perfectly legitimate position to be anti-theist or even more specifically anti-Islamic. The problem with this, of course, is that I am painting millions of perfectly peaceful, reasonable and integrated Muslims with the same brush as the radicalised and seperatist minority. It seems to me though that this is something for the Islamic community to address for themselves. I would like to think that, had I been brought up a Muslim, I would have rejected the religion when I saw the damage that was being done in it's name.

 

[Deleted 1]

**** me Chaz, I think I might agree with you. I don't have a problem with any individual's faith. I may disagree with them, but they are perfectly entitled to believe whatever they like. It's when organised religion gets involved and makes demands upon me to 'respect' it that I start to have a problem. Islam is a major problem in this country if you ask me, and whilst I detest all forms of racism, sexism, homophobia etc, I think that it is a perfectly legitimate position to be anti-theist or even more specifically anti-Islamic. The problem with this, of course, is that I am painting millions of perfectly peaceful, reasonable and integrated Muslims with the same brush as the radicalised and seperatist minority. It seems to me though that this is something for the Islamic community to address for themselves. I would like to think that, had I been brought up a Muslim, I would have rejected the religion when I saw the damage that was being done in it's name.

And, of course, some sects of major religions promote hommophobia, sexism and racism anyway so by opposing them you're simply reinforcing your own principles.

I do agree with Chaz though.

 

[sb_73]

But it shouldn't be.

If you actually look at the texts, there's nothing in Islam that dictates that Muslims should segregate themselves. There's nothing that in any way endorses terrorism, or abuse of non-Muslims, and certainly nothing that says that you shouldn't strive to communicate with those around you.

What the issue is, I feel, is people's interpretation of their religion, and the way that too many people - of all faiths - try to fit what they want to do into some kind of framework and prop the whole thing up with a Religion tag. It harms all religions when they do this.

My opinion, for what it's worth: At the end of the day, faith - real faith - is very different from religion, which is simply a box man has created to put their faith in and define it - and sadly used to try and justify their actions. Everyone does this to some degree, and what gets noticed are the people who put their faith in a well-armed, armour-plated box, or a gold-plated, clearly expensive box, instead of a simple transparent bag that's easy to examine and hides nothing. Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? The cup of a carpenter was very simple. All the complex, confrontational, ostentatious, objectionable stuff we've put there ourselves. And if people wonder why sensible level headed chaps like you, Stroller, feel the way you do - well, we probably need to wonder how and when we built such an unattractive box around ourselves....

Nice one Chaz. Ditto Stroller. An individual's faith is clearly their own business, some people gain from faith others don't require it, or never have the personal revelation required for true faith. And faith doesn't need to be justified in terms of rationality, facts, even actions - it's the atheist's nightmare argument! But not an argument that needs to be had. Organised religion is a different matter, and the highly contradictory nature of the core religious texts certainly doesn't help. There are plenty of verses of the Koran which can be interpreted as calls to violence, but there are also plenty which are focussed on peace. As you say it's when the interpretation leads to an exclusive, aggressive and committed to action religion we have problems.

On the other hand I read in the paper the other day that there are regular gatherings of atheists, up to 300 of them, in a deconsecrated church in North London, where they 'celebrate' their opinions and give lectures etc. I have to say I find this deeply creepy. There is nothing worse than gatherings of people who all believe the same thing, especially if they take their kids. Horrible cult potential. My atheism is as personal as your faith.

 

[Staines R's]

On the subject of integration....Isn't it just human nature for someone to settle in an area where they feel safe 'amongst their own' ?
Doing 'The Knowledge' for a few years taught me it isn't just the Muslim/Asian community who stick together in their own communities....from the Blacks in Brixton, Bengalis in Brick Lane, Turks in Stoke Newington, Jews in Stamford Hill, Whites in Isle Of Dogs....All (mostly) non intergrated communities in their own right...although the current trend of 'gentrification' in a lot of these areas seems to be dispersing these communities further afield.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Did I miss a news story about swans? Please enlighten me.

No , you haven't missed a news story. I have an acquaintance who lives in a house with the Test flowing at the foot of his garden (lucky chap). He mentioned to me that since a lot of Eastern Europeans came to the neighbourhood most of the wildfowl has disappeared. There's no evidence proving they've noshed on the ducks, but that's the story.

I just changed it to swans because it amused me in a Harry Biscuit/Bleak Expectations sort of way.

 

[TWGWTDT]

I hope you're not including me among the moaners, Paul? If you are then I'm gonna go on about it all bloody week.

I am again currently suffering from the cultural differences I get when I return to the UK
I apologise and will be off home next Wednesday

 

[TimPR78]

On the subject of integration....Isn't it just human nature for someone to settle in an area where they feel safe 'amongst their own' ?
Doing 'The Knowledge' for a few years taught me it isn't just the Muslim/Asian community who stick together in their own communities....from the Blacks in Brixton, Bengalis in Brick Lane, Turks in Stoke Newington, Jews in Stamford Hill, Whites in Isle Of Dogs....All (mostly) non intergrated communities in their own right...although the current trend of 'gentrification' in a lot of these areas seems to be dispersing these communities further afield.

Yeah a very good point. I guess my issue with the 'integration' isn't that those entering the UK should be doing as we do, but maybe not doing what we don't, what is considered unacceptable.

This is a big problem I have seen within the Muslim community is in respect of the treatment of women and the condemnation of homosexuals (apparently 1 in 10 people are gay so yes there are a lot of gay Muslims having to hide this). I have worked and become friends with a number of people from Islamic backgrounds yet have always felt uneasy around these issues with the worry that I might be considered 'in the wrong' for challenging them on these subjects. I have been lucky enough to have several discussions with Muslim ladies and how they feel about things such as the way they dress, behave, and being seen as inferior to men, all have said they don't really mind the headscarf but know it's not really an option and have to be seen to act a certain way and be somewhat subservient as the consequences would see them shunned from their families and communities leaving them pretty much alone, I would imagine worse would happen in most Muslim communities if they were to come out as gay.

On a lighter note those who are chosen to enforce the law out in Saudi are being specially trained to combat magic! In 2012 in Saudi someone was killed for 'witchcraft'

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I am again currently suffering from the cultural differences I get when I return to the UK
I apologise and will be off home next Wednesday

Jeez, I was only joshing with you, lil' laydee.

(To be read using a US Deep South-type drawl)

 

[sb_73]

On the subject of integration....Isn't it just human nature for someone to settle in an area where they feel safe 'amongst their own' ?
Doing 'The Knowledge' for a few years taught me it isn't just the Muslim/Asian community who stick together in their own communities....from the Blacks in Brixton, Bengalis in Brick Lane, Turks in Stoke Newington, Jews in Stamford Hill, Whites in Isle Of Dogs....All (mostly) non intergrated communities in their own right...although the current trend of 'gentrification' in a lot of these areas seems to be dispersing these communities further afield.

I found this for the US. It shows the biggest single (not the majority) ethnic/national background by county. I had always assumed that people spread around fairly evenly over time, but apparently only Germans do. Those classifying themselves as 'American' either do it for political reasons or don't know their origins. It's a bit old (2000) but interesting.
I like the way that the English gravitate to the pretty bits - New England and the Rockies.

You must log in or register to see images

 

[Stroller]

Seems the Pope has taken a hand in the US election, questioning Trump's religious credentials.

"a person who thinks only about building walls... and not of building bridges, is not Christian".

This ought to be body blow to the Trump campaign, but no doubt his ratings will surge once more.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Could be a boost for his Muslim vote

 

[sb_73]

Question Time from just down the road from me, in Stratford on Avon, a prosperous place with presumably prosperous well educated inhabitants. Sadly those in the audience seem just about as ignorant and soundbite ridden as the panel, although I exclude June Sarpong from this generalisation, as she only speaks gibberish and giggles. I have seized control of the remote and am now watching the Europa League highlights. The demise of BBC 3 is a disaster, where do I get my fix of Family Guy now?

 

[rangercol]

The BBC continue with their pro-EU bias, giving anyone with pro-EU views twice as much air time as anyone else!

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

They've had some deadbeats on the Question Time panel in the past, but barbie-doll June takes the biscuit (or French tart as she would have it...giggle). I guess she was there to add youth interest, but there are plenty of young black women who would give good intellectual content, and in June's case the dumbing down was disheartening. Every single member of the audience added more value in their comments that she did - apart from Basil Fawlty's brother who reminded everyone that the Germans started the last two world wars.

BBC Radio 4 trotted out europhiles Neil "loser" Kinnock (who then misquoted trade statistics) and Richard Branson (the same man who claimed the roof would fall in when we didn't join the Euro). Personally, I hope they both head up the IN campaign

 

[TimPR78]

Question Time from just down the road from me, in Stratford on Avon, a prosperous place with presumably prosperous well educated inhabitants. Sadly those in the audience seem just about as ignorant and soundbite ridden as the panel, although I exclude June Sarpong from this generalisation, as she only speaks gibberish and giggles. I have seized control of the remote and am now watching the Europa League highlights. The demise of BBC 3 is a disaster, where do I get my fix of Family Guy now?

I'm waiting for the new series of Archer, best animated series...ever!

 

[Chaz]

I'm waiting for the new series of Archer, best animated series...ever!

Netflix have seasons 1-6. Season 7 is due to start in the US at the end of March, but I'm not sure when we will get it over here...

 

[Tramore Ranger]

The BBC continue with their pro-EU bias, giving anyone with pro-EU views twice as much air time as anyone else!

You must have been watching BBC Breakfast this morning Col with Charlie State (?) for some reason standing outside Westminster allowing Umanuma whatever his name is, the Labour guy a free run without interruption whilst the Tory Euro Sceptic whom I've never heard off was constantly interrupted and not allowed to finish a sentence......very noticeable the bias......

 

[TWGWTDT]

The BBC continue with their pro-EU bias, giving anyone with pro-EU views twice as much air time as anyone else!

Good to see you are catching on Col about the BBC
As for Question Time it always looks manufactured to me by that I mean the odd plant is in the audience
DC coming out and claiming he will only do a deal if its right for the UK is a Joke as if he has any control over the country. He is a puppet nothing more