Off Topic The Politics Thread

[seagullhoop]

Well, in the post from me you liked I said what has been leaked is pretty aggressive and unacceptable.

The EU is negotiating into a vacuum, and that is our government’s fault. Doesn’t make the EU right, but I can understand the way they are going about this much more easily than I can understand what our government is doing.

For the record, I think the EU has a stack of problems unrelated to Brexit which it will struggle to deal with, they will always have tensions around the individual country interests v the interests of the whole, the practical impact of the € (which has inherent contradictions unless countries share fiscal as well as monetary policy, which is hard to imagine) differing wealth between member states and differing social attitudes. One day one or more of these things might tip the balance and lead to more countries leaving or the whole thing breaking up. But until now I don’t think there is a single country (with the possible exception of Greece, though who knows where they would be without the EU) which would not say that its people are materially better off through membership. Exactly how much is impossible to disentangle from the Global economy, but what happens to us after we finally leave might help to judge. I intensely dislike some of the figureheads of the EU (especially Junckers and that Dutch bloke from the EU Parliament, though I like Tusk and Barnier is just a servant).

So it’s a deeply flawed undertaking. But I just like the idea of international collaboration and integration under broadly liberal democratic rules, which is why I voted remain, despite all the issues. And with what I have seen from our government since the vote I have no belief that any of the so called benefits of Brexit will be delivered except reduced immigration (which may be to some a social benefit but won’t be an economic one).

Enough? And anyway, me saying nasty things about the EU won’t make much difference to the outcome.

Nicely put.

 

[seagullhoop]

Be interested to hear any comments on this podcast - it's quite long, but it does raise some very interesting points especially about an informed public and how the public might become more involved in policy making.

http://cheerful.libsyn.com

Episode 20. RESCUING DEMOCRACY: From Ancient Athens to Brexit

I know there will be things in there that might seem immediately unpalatable to some, but give it a chance, it's a really different view on the question of how democracy works and the guests don't take a position on Brexit (though clearly the hosts are pro-Remain)

Also if you haven't listened before there is a bizarre reason to be cheerful at about 10 mins in from one of the hosts which is both TMI and very funny.

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[ELLERS]

bloody hell Sky has been let loose with figures of doom.
190% rise in food in the south and in the North East that voted Brexit will be hit the hardest 5000000000% increase in everything.
The Remoaners are getting desperate.

 

[QPR Oslo]

bloody hell Sky has been let loose with figures of doom.
190% rise in food in the south and in the North East that voted Brexit will be hit the hardest 5000000000% increase in everything.
The Remoaners are getting desperate.

Do you make fake news for a living? What you are misrepresenting are estimates made by government officials.

 

[ELLERS]

Do you make fake news for a living? What you are misrepresenting are estimates made by government officials.

The best line from the unbias news was "The north east that was predominately Brexit will be hit the hardest". They have gone from 'project fear' to 'project let's try and scare the s22t out of them".

 

[Stroller]

The best line from the unbias news was "The north east that was predominately Brexit will be hit the hardest". They have gone from 'project fear' to 'project let's try and scare the s22t out of them".

You Brexit, You Owns It.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

The best line from the unbias news was "The north east that was predominately Brexit will be hit the hardest". They have gone from 'project fear' to 'project let's try and scare the s22t out of them".

It’s ****e now magic man so post Brexit I take it you have answers to solve all the problems

If you think the EU is in any way responsible for the possible for any failings in regions of the U.K. then you are wrong

It seems you may of become obsessed with finding evidence to suit your argument. None of us know nothing about the impact and frankly if you are putting your hope in current U.K. politics then you deserve the outcome imo

Moaning is the British way and it’s evolved into something very special. Luckily I have no Brexiteers in my social circles

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Make them pay

You Brexit, You Owns It.[/QUOTE

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

English nationals welcome to the grubby little over crowded island shop.

 

[ELLERS]

. None of us know nothing about the impact

Exactly so go back to your 2-hour lunch break and let us that live here get on with it. Plenty of ex-pats abroad keep coming back to use our NHS/Dentists/shops and are always moaning because they feel they will lose out.

 

[seagullhoop]

The best line from the unbias news was "The north east that was predominately Brexit will be hit the hardest". They have gone from 'project fear' to 'project let's try and scare the s22t out of them".

It's hard to see what your beef is... it's clear that the figures are projections, and may be better or worse - but they are the best estimates we have. In my eyes that's better than just hearing "it'll be fine" and "trust us" from people that have proved to be spectacularly lacking in providing evidenced detail.

Just because you don't like them you cry bias... based on what I'm not sure.

The BBC have been pretty generous to the government since the referendum vote - ministers have given an easy ride in the main - oh, and if you don't agree with the party line then you're a traitor.

This is simply the BBC (and all the other news agencies) reporting Government figures - that's it... reporting the figures.

It's interesting that the phrase 'Project Fear', appears every time there is any suggestion that Brexit won't be a success. What are you scared of... the unpalatable possibility that Brexit might not be all it's cracked up to be? Didn't seem to worry the leave campaign suggesting millions of immigrants would flood into the country did it... but then that's not scaremongering is it?

'Project Fear' really only seeks to shut down discussion - a bit like that 'traitor' nonsense aimed at anyone who dares to disagree with the kool-aid drinkers - it's really quite anti-democratic, and not very British, which is sad because it's what this upheaval is supposedly all about.

These figures - from a government intent on pushing Brexit through by the way - suggest Brexit will be a catastrophe for the majority of people in the country, and that is a disturbing new development, and arguably should be whatever side of the divide you sit.

Of course it won't change the lives of the elites, they'll be fine and prosper in a low wage economy - somewhat like modern day Victorians dispensing minimal charity while doing little to alleviate the growing poverty... and there may be cheap shoes from China, but it will be scant reward for what promises to be the biggest con perpetrated on the British people in all our lifetimes.

In a time where children are already experiencing the return of Victorian diseases like rickets - directly attributable to poverty - it's heartening to know that there are still people out there who are prepared to hold the government to account and to provide answers to the questions people have been demanding all along.

You really should listen to that podcast - it would give us something else to talk about.

 

[QPR Oslo]

It's hard to see what your beef is... it's clear that the figures are projections, and may be better or worse - but they are the best estimates we have. In my eyes that's better than just hearing "it'll be fine" and "trust us" from people that have proved to be spectacularly lacking in providing evidenced detail.

Just because you don't like them you cry bias... based on what I'm not sure.

The BBC have been pretty generous to the government since the referendum vote - ministers have given an easy ride in the main - oh, and if you don't agree with the party line then you're a traitor.

This is simply the BBC (and all the other news agencies) reporting Government figures - that's it... reporting the figures.

It's interesting that the phrase 'Project Fear', appears every time there is any suggestion that Brexit won't be a success. What are you scared of... the unpalatable possibility that Brexit might not be all it's cracked up to be? Didn't seem to worry the leave campaign suggesting millions of immigrants would flood into the country did it... but then that's not scaremongering is it?

'Project Fear' really only seeks to shut down discussion - a bit like that 'traitor' nonsense aimed at anyone who dares to disagree with the kool-aid drinkers - it's really quite anti-democratic, and not very British, which is sad because it's what this upheaval is supposedly all about.

These figures - from a government intent on pushing Brexit through by the way - suggest Brexit will be a catastrophe for the majority of people in the country, and that is a disturbing new development, and arguably should be whatever side of the divide you sit.

Of course it won't change the lives of the elites, they'll be fine and prosper in a low wage economy - somewhat like modern day Victorians dispensing minimal charity while doing little to alleviate the growing poverty... and there may be cheap shoes from China, but it will be scant reward for what promises to be the biggest con perpetrated on the British people in all our lifetimes.

In a time where children are already experiencing the return of Victorian diseases like rickets - directly attributable to poverty - it's heartening to know that there are still people out there who are prepared to hold the government to account and to provide answers to the questions people have been demanding all along.

You really should listen to that podcast - it would give us something else to talk about.

Spot on mate. They are a forecast for 15 years and of course forecasts are rarely spot on. But when the trends before Brexit has even happened and the overwhelming majority of the countless forecasts made point the same way, anyone not seeing the huge economic downturn Brexit is giving has their head well up their own Exit.

 

[ELLERS]

It's hard to see what your beef is...

My beef is that many of the remainers are trying to deraiL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Using the bias media like Sky/BBC and other outlets to forecast doom (in 15 years yet they got it wrong in 15 months). It sounds like a desperate last attempt. However I will listen to the podcast (as long as it's not onesided remain)?

 

[seagullhoop]

My beef is that many of the remainers are trying to deraiL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Using the bias media like Sky/BBC and other outlets to forecast doom (in 15 years yet they got it wrong in 15 months). It sounds like a desperate last attempt. However I will listen to the podcast (as long as it's not onesided remain)?

But pro or anti we all need some idea of the repercussions... at the moment it's just a hit and hope.

Re: podcast, the guests are not pro or anti, just looking for ways to involve the public in political discourse and to help drive policy - I think it raises some very pertinent points.

 

[sb_73]

My beef is that many of the remainers are trying to deraiL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Using the bias media like Sky/BBC and other outlets to forecast doom (in 15 years yet they got it wrong in 15 months). It sounds like a desperate last attempt. However I will listen to the podcast (as long as it's not onesided remain)?

100 people are asked if it would be good to confiscate Ellers’ house, sell it, and distribute the proceeds to the poor. 25 don’t bother to answer, 38 say yes, let’s do it, 37 say no, let’s not.

As it is clearly the WILL OF THE PEOPLE Ellers is now homeless. Anybody who thinks this is unfair and tries to speak up about it is told to shut up and not challenge the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

The will of the people argument is based on Jean Jacques Rousseau’s well meant theory of the ‘general will’, which was meant to be about the common good but was easily twisted to justify tyranny, like the reign of terror in the French Revolution. On a tiny scale your desire to shut up opposition in the name of the ‘people’ demonstrates the point. The WILL OF THE PEOPLE is bullshit. The reason we have representative democracy is to mediate between different interests for the common good as best we can, rather than hide behind ****ing slogans like THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

 

[seagullhoop]

My beef is that many of the remainers are trying to deraiL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Using the bias media like Sky/BBC and other outlets to forecast doom (in 15 years yet they got it wrong in 15 months). It sounds like a desperate last attempt. However I will listen to the podcast (as long as it's not onesided remain)?

Of course they are - that's how politics works.

But that is a distraction from the central point - whether you are pro or anti there still needs to be full disclosure and detail - a plan.

Currently there is nothing beyond preliminary discussions which have been fudged to get to the next stage. (Will it be a hard or soft irish border anyone?)

What I want to know is what Brexit means in practice... without the silly sloganeering - we deserve to know where the government are taking us and what it will be like - at this time it really doesn't look too good... and if that means there are going to be options on the table then at that point the voting public can take a more informed decision.

The 'will of the people' (even if you shout it over and over again) is just not a fixed position for many people - it is frankly a fluid and ever changing state of opinion - much like QPR fans when we win (playoffs) or lose (relegation/sack the manager).

 

[seagullhoop]

My beef is that many of the remainers are trying to deraiL THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Using the bias media like Sky/BBC and other outlets to forecast doom (in 15 years yet they got it wrong in 15 months). It sounds like a desperate last attempt. However I will listen to the podcast (as long as it's not onesided remain)?

One of the best things about the podcast is the discussion about making politics and policy less about policies designed to keep a party in power and more about the best interests of the country and population - be very interested to get your take.

 

[ELLERS]

100 people are asked if it would be good to confiscate Ellers’ house, sell it, and distribute the proceeds to the poor. 25 don’t bother to answer, 38 say yes, let’s do it, 37 say no, let’s not.

As it is clearly the WILL OF THE PEOPLE Ellers is now homeless. Anybody who thinks this is unfair and tries to speak up about it is told to shut up and not challenge the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
The will of the people argument is based on Jean Jacques Rousseau’s well meant theory of the ‘general will’, which was meant to be about the common good but was easily twisted to justify tyranny, like the reign of terror in the French Revolution. On a tiny scale your desire to shut up opposition in the name of the ‘people’ demonstrates the point. The WILL OF THE PEOPLE is bullshit. The reason we have representative democracy is to mediate between different interests for the common good as best we can, rather than hide behind ****ing slogans like THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

The flip side of that is:
A nation was asked if they wanted to leave the EU (simple as) 52% yes 48% no. The vote was given to all that were of legal age and eligible.
sadly, instead of getting on with this democratic choice, some have been hell-bent on trying to derail our democracy that is envied around the world. Simply because they don't like losing.
In all walks of life, there are winners and losers but we try to be as fair we can. As far as I am concerned the vote was to leave, we will leave so get over it.
AS for my house? I would rather lose it then pay lots of money each year and don't have a say in what I can do in my own house.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Exactly so go back to your 2-hour lunch break and let us that live here get on with it. Plenty of ex-pats abroad keep coming back to use our NHS/Dentists/shops and are always moaning because they feel they will lose out.

I use French Doctors and pharmacies as they are a lot better imo I prefer to pay if I am ill


Yes have friends in Gib who are flown back on the tax payer and stay at the hotel at St George’s in Tooting all free of charge on the NHS

This won’t of course stop and I used St Hellier for my cancer treatment . Very good service as well plus consultants signed me off for 4 months so I could return to the sun

It’s only fair of course that anyone that paid into anything gets full value

The fact that the NHS is run by idiots is on concern to me