Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
I am surprised you have internet access because when I was in France it was like a Third World country.
I think after we get out of the failing union the UK will prosper.

I’m at Blackfriars but early today I was getting 63mbps all for €30 a month plus I am 25 minutes from any major village
 
Branson’s health service avoids UK corporation tax while racking up millions in NHS profit
Published time: 9 Jan, 2018 13:24 Edited time: 10 Jan, 2018 08:40
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Billionaire Branson branded ‘a grasping capitalist’ for suing cash-strapped NHS



According to the I News journalist Paul Gallagher, the service recorded an £8.16 million profit from a turnover of £204 million in 2017, up from the £7.28m profit, on a turnover of £134 million, it had recorded in 2016.
According to analysis by Richard Murphy, a chartered accountant at Tax Research UK, Virgin Care has been able to avoid tax payments as it has some 13 holding companies, some of which are registered offshore, between itself and its parent company Virgin Group Holdings, based in the British Virgin Islands and citing Branson as sole shareholder.
George Turner, director of Tax Justice UK, hit out at authorities for handing out contracts to companies actively seeking to avoid tax.
“Virgin Care is part of the Virgin group, which is based in the British Virgin Islands. It is our view that government should not be contracting services to companies based in tax havens,” Turner said.
The profit is largely due to the service earning three new contracts in 2017, which include: a five-year contract with NHS and local authority in Wiltshire worth £64m, a seven-year contract with NHS East Staffordshire Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) worth £270m, and another seven-year contract with NHS Dartford, Gravesham and Swanley CCG and NHS Swale CCG, worth £126m.
It follows recent news of plutocrat tycoon Branson seeing his health service win a record £1 billion of NHS contracts last year.
They were part of the £3.1 billion-worth in contracts being privatized by the government, despite its pledge to reduce private firms’ involvement in the national health provision.
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Overall, private firms scooped 267 -almost 70 percent- of the 368 clinical contracts up for grabs between 2016-17, according to a report by the NHS Support Federation, a campaign group monitoring the NHS privatization.
The staggering number of contracts being handed to private firms undoubtedly casts doubt on Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt’s repeated claims that such contracts merely account for a marginal part of health provision.
“These figures clearly show that privatisation has a strong momentum within the NHS,” Paul Evans, the director of the NHS Support Federation, told the Guardian.
“The doors to private sector involvement in the NHS remain open despite promises to move away from market-based approaches by NHS leaders and politicians. Privateers continue to win huge new NHS contracts.”
Branson has previously been criticized over his decision to sue the NHS after losing out on an £82m contract to provide children’s health services in Surrey.
The NHS settled the legal dispute for an undisclosed amount. But as reports later claimed that the lawsuit had left the NHS with liabilities of hundreds of thousands of pounds, critics branded Branson’s legal action as “scandalous”.
Shadow Health Secretary Jonathan Ashworth told the Independent: “It’s scandalous that NHS money is being wasted on fighting off legal bids from private companies.
Of course they should pay tax, but the numbers in the first paragraph are crap - add a huge wedge of turnover and only a tiny bit of profit, at a sub 5% margin? So they have won 33% of the NHS ‘private’ contracts worth £3bn. The overall NHS budget is £126bn. It’s peanuts. Alleged ‘privatisation’ little or nothing to do with the state the NHS as it is. I have no idea whether allowing private organisations o bid to run NHS services is a good thing or not, all I know is that it wouldn’t happen unless the government thought it would save taxpayer £.

I’ve covered the legal stuff already I think.

The irony is this was the position in the early Blair years. And the middle classes were opting out of the NHS and going private, which, if it had continued, would have been the death knell for the state system. As we know, Blair's solution was to try to get a health service that everyone would choose to use over any other - and he did this by pushing work into the private sector.

I've found the NHS pretty good on the whole, and the - free at the point of delivery - philosophy is admirable. But long term, it may not be achievable. A top down reorganisation and inflush of funds is needed. I think the wealthy should pay more, perhaps for earlier non-urgent ops or fancy private rooms. But before voters will pour more money in, they want to know the holes in the bucket (health tourism, missed appointments etc) are fixed. If the middle classes start to leave the NHS, the crisis will worsen.

Staff training has to be expedited now.
The irony is that by the end of the Blair/Brown years the NHS was funded something close to Western European levels, and its waiting time metrics, including A&E waits, were all being hit. The target then was for 97% of patients to wait no more than four hours in A&E. The coalition relaxed that to 95% and now they are struggling to hit 85%. The 18 week wait from consultant referral to treatment deadline was close to 100% complied to under Labour. The entire metric has been abandoned now. I have mentioned the nearly entirely irrelevant nature of the ‘privatisation’ argument above. The NHS was better funded and worked better for more people under Labour than it does now. You can blame austerity, but it has been a government decision to limit NHS funding.

Your desire to blame Blair for everything is touching, but doomed. Private health insurance peaked in 2008 at about 12.5% of the population, then fell back and is now rising again, close to 11% covered now. Over three quarters of those covered are in company schemes, like me. As an aside, it’s a good business to be in, the margin (I.e excess on what insurance premiums bring in over the cost of paying over for treatment) is over 25%. Much better that NHS ‘private’ contracts - Branson take note.

I don’t especially want ‘expedited’ training, if it takes 7 years to get a junior doctor qualified properly, it takes 7 years. But unless the terms and working conditions improve we will never fill the gap, because who the **** would want to do the jobs?
 
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Limousin? It’s a bit behind there if so

Just like the banks closed on Mondays? Or the not being able to pay money in! I jest not, they wouldn't accept cash and the cashier got a bank card out of the draw and took me to a machine after I spent 5 minutes filling out forms (plus the customary chat with other people while he was doing that). Not bad spending 15 minutes in a bank to pay in cash. Or the paying a bill into a government building that was only open 3 days a week plus the 2-hour lunches every day. When I was in there it took 2 people, god knows how many staples and photocopies and tapping endlessly on a keyboard, 25 minutes later I paid a bill.
Or we could talk about paying cheques for shopping and being stuck in a queue while they all chat and pay by cheques.
80% of French workers work for the state/Government. They have to keep people employed. Use 3 people when only one is needed. Like the EU they will never change and that is their downfall. Same in Germany but they are not as lazy.
Don't get me wrong I like France but you can see why the country is f22ked and after Brexit it will be even more f22ked when they have to fill the financial gap that we won't be paying

As for your comments Limousin? I don't know if you are trying to be snobbish or mocking the area. I Have a house (holiday home) in a very picturesque part of the country. My house is fab and I am very happy with the holidays there. People can live in the Bahamas but if they live in a shack or a ghetto it's not quite the same.
 
Just like the banks closed on Mondays? Or the not being able to pay money in! I jest not, they wouldn't accept cash and the cashier got a bank card out of the draw and took me to a machine after I spent 5 minutes filling out forms (plus the customary chat with other people while he was doing that). Not bad spending 15 minutes in a bank to pay in cash. Or the paying a bill into a government building that was only open 3 days a week plus the 2-hour lunches every day. When I was in there it took 2 people, god knows how many staples and photocopies and tapping endlessly on a keyboard, 25 minutes later I paid a bill.
Or we could talk about paying cheques for shopping and being stuck in a queue while they all chat and pay by cheques.
80% of French workers work for the state/Government. They have to keep people employed. Use 3 people when only one is needed. Like the EU they will never change and that is their downfall. Same in Germany but they are not as lazy.
Don't get me wrong I like France but you can see why the country is f22ked and after Brexit it will be even more f22ked when they have to fill the financial gap that we won't be paying

As for your comments Limousin? I don't know if you are trying to be snobbish or mocking the area. I Have a house (holiday home) in a very picturesque part of the country. My house is fab and I am very happy with the holidays there. People can live in the Bahamas but if they live in a shack or a ghetto it's not quite the same.

Not being snobby st all sir it’s just that the Limousin is very much still on the repair as a region. I agree with the banks
I wouldn’t agree that France is ****ed it needs reform but I hope it never gets it as the quality of life comes first

France my friend is very strong so please do not believe the standard news stories here they have shaped British opinion for centuries right or wrong it exists
When you live in it you get to see everything
for what it is. I eat and drink in the Arab quarter sometimes and if you want to taste getto flavour.... it’s very edgy at first but after you treat people straight it comes back multiplied .

What we can maybe agree on it’s that is a very large beautiful country where some values still remain.

You take yourself wherever you go anyway.

As for tech I can assure you that France is light years ahead. Banking well they are not so good . The TV is terrible

Like the UK there are places not so nice
I myself draw a line nowadays across from Tours ... below that the geography imo gets spellbinding
 
Not being snobby st all sir it’s just that the Limousin is very much still on the repair as a region. I agree with the banks
I wouldn’t agree that France is ****ed it needs reform but I hope it never gets it as the quality of life comes first

France my friend is very strong so please do not believe the standard news stories here they have shaped British opinion for centuries right or wrong it exists
When you live in it you get to see everything
for what it is. I eat and drink in the Arab quarter sometimes and if you want to taste getto flavour.... it’s very edgy at first but after you treat people straight it comes back multiplied .

What we can maybe agree on it’s that is a very large beautiful country where some values still remain.

You take yourself wherever you go anyway.

As for tech I can assure you that France is light years ahead. Banking well they are not so good . The TV is terrible

Like the UK there are places not so nice
I myself draw a line nowadays across from Tours ... below that the geography imo gets spellbinding

Yep can agree in parts. However, I don't believe all stories regarding Brexit or read the Mail. I see it for what it is. Too many people talk down our country but we have a great history at leading the way in many things. Living and working abroad has enriched my understanding of the World however, there is no place like home.
Our country is fab (with all it's faults).

You mention tech. Now you may know something I don't but from what I see, I don't think the French seem embrace tech like us. That's all over and not just in Limousin. I was in the South of France last year and went into a supermarket and had a general look around. I didn't think they were 'light years' ahead of us. If you are talking Hi tech then France don't even make the top 10. On various sites it has us higher than France.

https://www.thetoptens.com/high-tech-countries/

French are a funny lot as they invent stuff that looks impressive but actually doesn't work very well...Take the Maginot Line, all pomp and glitz but didn't work.
 
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Shops full of pies await Britain after Brexit
BY Iain Martin |
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iainmartin1
/ 10 January 2018
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Luke MacGregor/Bloomberg via Getty Images
If you have been worrying about the equanimity of some of those most dedicated to stopping Brexit, the latest column by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown for “The New European” newspaper offers little comfort.
“Britain has never been a small, dull, grey island… until now,” she says, before going on to mix up Europe (a civilisation thousands of years old which it is a geographic and cultural impossibility for the UK to leave) and the European Union (which is in its current format a political construct only 25 years old.)
In a crowded field, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has crafted one of the unintentionally funniest pieces to appear in The New European, by combining snobbery and an assault on chips. Yasmin quotes Kipling writing on imperialism, when he described “those street people” cheering the English flag.
That’s “those street people,”or the voters and pesky taxpayers as we call them now.
“Those street people, ill-taught, used and betrayed by manipulative scoundrels, cut us off from our continent. And they still vapour and fume and brag.”
Blimey. That’ll win us round!
“Sadly, few of them will ever see the light or admit they were wrong. So bring it on – the dull small island life, grey, inward, with shops full of pies and chips and blue passports in our bags. Groan.”
Shops full of pies.
This is, of course, spot on. Secretly, there is nothing that those of us who voted to leave the European Union like more than to gather for an evening to compare blue passport designs. On these occasions we always avoid restaurants, for fear of finding foreign dishes on the menu, and instead visit one of Britain’s many “shops full of pies.” Indeed, “who ate all the pies?” (I did, over Christmas) is our alternative national anthem.
Britain was built on pies. We love pies, and after Brexit we will eat only pies.
This shows that Vote Leave missed a trick in June 2016. If they had promised on the side of their bus that Britain post-Brexit would have “shops full of pies” I suspect that Leave would have won the EU referendum by a bigger margin. If chips were also provided, it would have been a landslide among British men. Every single man in Britain, apart from Nick “I’ll have the tapas” Clegg, would have voted for “shops full of pies.” Pies are what made this country great, along with fried fish (an idea imported from Spain and Portugal in the 17th century), claret (from France) and pasta (from Bella Pasta.)
 
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The lovable Toby Young, whom Theresa May was backing just last weekend, keeps some very dubious company it seems. I wonder if this Private Eye article had more to do with his stepping down than all the fuss about his puerile tweets about womens' breasts.

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The lovable Toby Young, whom Theresa May was backing just last weekend, keeps some very dubious company it seems. I wonder if this Private Eye article had more to do with his stepping down than all the fuss about his puerile tweets about womens' breasts.

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old news
 
Is it? Why was May supporting him last weekend then? Do you think he should have kept his position?
Stroller we all know you are anti Tory and anti Brexit. This is old news, the bloke has gone. Plenty of Labour mp's/Lords that have done worse but even worth posting about. Start posting some stuff on the economy, that is worth debating. :emoticon-0148-yes:
 
Stroller we all know you are anti Tory and anti Brexit. This is old news, the bloke has gone. Plenty of Labour mp's/Lords that have done worse but even worth posting about. Start posting some stuff on the economy, that is worth debating. :emoticon-0148-yes:

Yes, he's gone, but I think this is quite revealing as to exactly why he had to go, and I think it speaks to the competence and judgment of our Prime Minister that she was supporting him right up to the moment he stepped down. I'm sure if there are Labour people even more vile than Toby Young, you or Kiwi will come up with all we need to know about them. I'm just trying to provide some balance. :emoticon-0148-yes:

As to the economy, do you mean the UK economy that is already growing at a slower rate than the rest of the EU, even before we feel the full effects of Brexit?
 
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I really do wonder where all these figures are plucked from?! Personally didn't vote in the referendum due to not understanding any potential implications. In hindsight I would have voted remain but that's been and gone now and whatever will be will be. There's always a loser in politics and we should just crack on and deal with whatever comes our way.
 
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I really do wonder where all these figures are plucked from?! Personally didn't vote in the referendum due to not understanding any potential implications. In hindsight I would have voted remain but that's been and gone now and whatever will be will be. There's always a loser in politics and we should just crack on and deal with whatever comes our way.
Agree. My mate was an avid 'remainer' but on Saturday he was telling me how he thinks long term it will probably be a good thing. I was only saying yesterday that all the hype and doom is disappearing and people will get on with it.
Yes, you will still get people like the treacherous Blair kicking up a fuss but people just want to move on.
 
Yep can agree in parts. However, I don't believe all stories regarding Brexit or read the Mail. I see it for what it is. Too many people talk down our country but we have a great history at leading the way in many things. Living and working abroad has enriched my understanding of the World however, there is no place like home.
Our country is fab (with all it's faults).

You mention tech. Now you may know something I don't but from what I see, I don't think the French seem embrace tech like us. That's all over and not just in Limousin. I was in the South of France last year and went into a supermarket and had a general look around. I didn't think they were 'light years' ahead of us. If you are talking Hi tech then France don't even make the top 10. On various sites it has us higher than France.

https://www.thetoptens.com/high-tech-countries/

French are a funny lot as they invent stuff that looks impressive but actually doesn't work very well...Take the Maginot Line, all pomp and glitz but didn't work.

Looking at things tech from a Canadian and French invention called a Super or Hypermarket isn't what i meant by tech apologies.

Aerospace, Pharmaceuticals, Car manufacturing (esp next generation cars) and Power Industries.
road,rail links/systems, satellite tech, food transport logistics, building materials are what i really meant by light years ahead.

On the face of it as Brits we all look upon Johnny Foreigner as being either lazy or a less on the ball than us. we borrow ideas and products and very quickly believe that we are in fact the masters of them e.g the latest foodie trend of the last 20 years. Music, Cycling and Football are things we do a lot better than the French but after that it becomes difficult.

The truth is very much that we are a country ( A great country i agree) of mass consumers, which has to include the internet as one of the biggest shifts in recent times and our addiction to it. We still very much perceive the French and all other European nationalities are having something wrong with them. It's the Anglo Saxon way. Over a period of time the UK society and culture has shifted IMO to a very much worst place. I salute people getting cross at a pop at the UK believe it or not: I love the UK however today we are a divided nation in a real mess. Generations have grown apart and we have a dreadful political system that does not work for the people at all.

France still knows to balance out Tech etc as generally ( not everywhere) you will still find standards that we once had.

I know i rant on and it has taken 2 years for me to adjust between the transition of the frequency in which i switch from the two countries

I totally agree with you even after all of this that the UK is a super fine place ... it's what you make of it that counts. My frustration is that our society and especially our culture has slipped to a lower level. I honestly cannot see it changing in my lifetime and therefore my relief at now going home to France albeit OTT restores faith inside me.