Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

And so the arrogant, pompous intransigent EU give the UK a two week ultimatum to promise yet more cash before they'll agree to kick-start the talks.
We have offered too much already and have given ground on the Irish border, citizen's rights and pledged cash.
With every day that passes it's clear that getting out of the EU is the best thing we've ever decided to do.
Call their bluff and.................................

Tell 'em to **** off!!

Col the EU is panicking. Putting pressure on us is just covering up their own worries. They can say "we don't need the UK" and will do okay without us, well if that is the case, why are they trying so hard to stop us leaving? All the talk of everyone moving to Paris or Germany has not materialized. Even with all the crap that has gone on with the pound/business/Brexit we are still here and not doing as bad as we were told in 'project fear'. Some tough times ahead but again I am glad we are leaving that club which is totally controlled by Merkel. The 'remoaners' can bleat on as much as they like but things will be moving forward.
The EU is on dodgy ground in many countries and if they had reformed it a few years ago they wouldn't have been in this mess.

 

[sb_73]

Loving the utterly meaningless proposal by May to ‘enshrine’ in legislation the time of leaving the EU - 11.00pm on 29 March 2019.

I’m sure that will keep Jake, Billy Cash etc happy until they realise that legislation can be changed at any time, one government cannot bind the hands of the next one, and that 11 pm is the odd hour because in the EU it will be midnight. Theresa knows who is the boss.

In other news 27% of British adults are clinically obese and 63% of us are overweight. Presumably as all these people have sovereignty over their own bodies they want to be fat so we should not be concerned about it. Freewill is a myth.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

And so the arrogant, pompous intransigent EU give the UK a two week ultimatum to promise yet more cash before they'll agree to kick-start the talks.
We have offered too much already and have given ground on the Irish border, citizen's rights and pledged cash.
With every day that passes it's clear that getting out of the EU is the best thing we've ever decided to do.
Call their bluff and.................................

Tell 'em to **** off!!

What really frightens Brussels, what completely shrivels Junckers's insignificant testicles, is not the anti-immigrant rebellions in Eastern Europe, not the possible break up of Spain, not the threat from terrorism worsened by Schengen, not the threat from Russia - it's the fact that the UK could thrive outside the EU. Brussels is ****ting itself over that prospect. It will do all it can to prevent it happening. So far we've seen the usual complacent and arrogant EU approach, moving not an inch in the Brexit negotiations, and demanding time and time again that the UK bid against itself. Polls are showing the British populace are fast tiring of it and don't believe Brussels genuinely wants a Brexit deal.

I'm increasingly of the few, Col, that your "Tell 'em to **** off" is the right strategy. If the EU don't start trade negotiations after December, we prepare for the WTO route. If trade talks do start, we still prepare for the WTO route because we may need to go this route for some years before the EU come to their senses. And if we do start to walk away from the EU talks, I confidently predict we'll see huge fissures developing with the EU camp between the reasonable " continued trade with the UK" brigade, and Junckers's hardliners. The hardliners will come under huge pressure from European businesses that have big UK exporting interests. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[sb_73]

Col the EU is panicking. Putting pressure on us is just covering up their own worries. They can say "we don't need the UK" and will do okay without us, well if that is the case, why are they trying so hard to stop us leaving? All the talk of everyone moving to Paris or Germany has not materialized. Even with all the crap that has gone on with the pound/business/Brexit we are still here and not doing as bad as we were told in 'project fear'. Some tough times ahead but again I am glad we are leaving that club which is totally controlled by Merkel. The 'remoaners' can bleat on as much as they like but things will be moving forward.
The EU is on dodgy ground in many countries and if they had reformed it a few years ago they wouldn't have been in this mess.

What really frightens Brussels, what completely shrivels Junckers's insignificant testicles, is not the anti-immigrant rebellions in Eastern Europe, not the possible break up of Spain, not the threat from terrorism worsened by Schengen, not the threat from Russia - it's the fact that the UK could thrive outside the EU. Brussels is ****ting itself over that prospect. It will do all it can to prevent it happening. So far we've seen the usual complacent and arrogant EU approach, moving not an inch in the Brexit negotiations, and demanding time and time again that the UK bid against itself. Polls are showing the British populace are fast tiring of it and don't believe Brussels genuinely wants a Brexit deal.

I'm increasingly of the few, Col, that your "Tell 'em to **** off" is the right strategy. If the EU don't start trade negotiations after December, we prepare for the WTO route. If trade talks do start, we still prepare for the WTO route because we may need to go this route for some years before the EU come to their senses. And if we do start to walk away from the EU talks, I confidently predict we'll see huge fissures developing with the EU camp between the reasonable " continued trade with the UK" brigade, and Junckers's hardliners. The hardliners will come under huge pressure from European businesses that have big UK exporting interests. I'm looking forward to it.

Right, so the best future for the UK is dependent on the failure of the EU? Inspiring! [HASHTAG]#makeBritaingreat[/HASHTAG] again![HASHTAG]#nodenialhere[/HASHTAG]!

EU have a stronger hand and are playing it with a chaotic and incompetent negotiating partner. Choice is simple - pay up if you want a trade deal. The 27 might have differences over trade but they are united on the cash. Brexiters can always and will always blame the EU (which doubtless does deserve some blame) rather than their own spineless, useless government.

Quick reminder of the timelines:
June 2016 British people take the decision in principle to leave the EU - no detail of what this means was voted on
Almost immediately EU says the dimensions of the negotiation will be citizenship, Irish border and cash before future trade.
Tories **** around getting new leader
March 2017 Tories set off Article 50, in the full knowledge that it is done to a timetable
Immediately becomes clear that almost no preparation has been done on the British side
Tories **** around with an election which makes them even weaker and more chaotic
October 2017 the EU leaders say give us a bit more clarity on the cash and we will move on to trade after our December meeting
This week, Barnier reminds the British government what it needs to do to get the EU leaders to green light trade discussions at their meeting in December. Miss this deadline it will be March before EU leaders will consider again, meaning no time for various parliaments to consider before March 2019.

We’re obviously being bullied.

 

[TheBigDipper]

<snip>
I'm increasingly of the few, Col, that your "Tell 'em to **** off" is the right strategy.
<snip>

There's a reason why the number of people who think this is the right approach is falling. (I can't bring myself to grace it with the word "strategy", cos it isn't). The people nominally in charge of our country are incompetent and more interested in fighting each other than they are in getting a decent agreement for moving us forwards.

If we end up just walking away, things will be far worse here than over there in the short to medium term. Those incompetent politicians will still try and blame the EU for their own failings, and people here will continue to agree with them and vote for them. It's so much easier to use scapegoats than it is to look in the mirror, isn't it?

Even if I'm wrong, and Brexit actually is a good idea in principle, the people who are mismanaging the delivery of it are the ones who should be told to "f**k off", because in practice it still looks like a disaster to me.

 

[ELLERS]

EU have a stronger hand and are playing it.

They can't even sort out Catalonia. It's not a strong hand Sb it's a bullying fist. Forget the 27, as there are only 2 countries that matter.

 

[ELLERS]

Even if I'm wrong, and Brexit actually is a good idea in principle, the people who are mismanaging the delivery of it are the ones who should be told to "f**k off", because in practice it still looks like a disaster to me.

Agree it seems that some are making a mess of it however you also have to remember that some of the media are trying to derail it so they are making it sound worse than it is. That was proven recently when the media turned comments made by Davis.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Right, so the best future for the UK is dependent on the failure of the EU? Inspiring! [HASHTAG]#makeBritaingreat[/HASHTAG] again![HASHTAG]#nodenialhere[/HASHTAG]!

EU have a stronger hand and are playing it with a chaotic and incompetent negotiating partner. Choice is simple - pay up if you want a trade deal. The 27 might have differences over trade but they are united on the cash. Brexiters can always and will always blame the EU (which doubtless does deserve some blame) rather than their own spineless, useless government.

Quick reminder of the timelines:
June 2016 British people take the decision in principle to leave the EU - no detail of what this means was voted on
Almost immediately EU says the dimensions of the negotiation will be citizenship, Irish border and cash before future trade.
Tories **** around getting new leader
March 2017 Tories set off Article 50, in the full knowledge that it is done to a timetable
Immediately becomes clear that almost no preparation has been done on the British side
Tories **** around with an election which makes them even weaker and more chaotic
October 2017 the EU leaders say give us a bit more clarity on the cash and we will move on to trade after our December meeting
This week, Barnier reminds the British government what it needs to do to get the EU leaders to green light trade discussions at their meeting in December. Miss this deadline it will be March before EU leaders will consider again, meaning no time for various parliaments to consider before March 2019.

We’re obviously being bullied.

I don't want the EU to fail. For their sake, I hope they kick out the federalist leaders.

The EU are close to overplaying their hand on Brexit. Every concession has to come from the UK. The EU hasn't recognised once that the success of its members depends in part, an important part, on trade with the UK. Brinkmanship is one thing, obdurate bloody mindedness is another.

Interesting that Theresa May's reasonableness in Florence and unyielding thereafter has (cautiously) gone down well with the British public. Interesting too that Toxic Tony Blair, when asked about Corbyn on the Today program today said, with recent Tory chaos over Fallon, Patel and Johnson, Corbyn ought to be 15 points ahead. Yet recent polls have the Tories slightly ahead.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

There's a reason why the number of people who think this is the right approach is falling. (I can't bring myself to grace it with the word "strategy", cos it isn't). The people nominally in charge of our country are incompetent and more interested in fighting each other than they are in getting a decent agreement for moving us forwards.

If we end up just walking away, things will be far worse here than over there in the short to medium term. Those incompetent politicians will still try and blame the EU for their own failings, and people here will continue to agree with them and vote for them. It's so much easier to use scapegoats than it is to look in the mirror, isn't it?

Even if I'm wrong, and Brexit actually is a good idea in principle, the people who are mismanaging the delivery of it are the ones who should be told to "f**k off", because in practice it still looks like a disaster to me.

It takes a minimum of two parties to negotiate. If one party refuses to compromise on anything, it isn't a negotiation.

You cannot reach agreement with a brick wall, particularly if the brick wall's greatest wish is to come down on your head.

 

[rangercol]

Right, so the best future for the UK is dependent on the failure of the EU? Inspiring! [HASHTAG]#makeBritaingreat[/HASHTAG] again![HASHTAG]#nodenialhere[/HASHTAG]!

EU have a stronger hand and are playing it with a chaotic and incompetent negotiating partner. Choice is simple - pay up if you want a trade deal. The 27 might have differences over trade but they are united on the cash. Brexiters can always and will always blame the EU (which doubtless does deserve some blame) rather than their own spineless, useless government.

Quick reminder of the timelines:
June 2016 British people take the decision in principle to leave the EU - no detail of what this means was voted on
Almost immediately EU says the dimensions of the negotiation will be citizenship, Irish border and cash before future trade.
Tories **** around getting new leader
March 2017 Tories set off Article 50, in the full knowledge that it is done to a timetable
Immediately becomes clear that almost no preparation has been done on the British side
Tories **** around with an election which makes them even weaker and more chaotic
October 2017 the EU leaders say give us a bit more clarity on the cash and we will move on to trade after our December meeting
This week, Barnier reminds the British government what it needs to do to get the EU leaders to green light trade discussions at their meeting in December. Miss this deadline it will be March before EU leaders will consider again, meaning no time for various parliaments to consider before March 2019.

We’re obviously being bullied.

It always amazes me at just how one-sided you see things. Our Government are a useless bunch, as are nearly all the politicians of all shades in this era imo, but the EU have so obviously taken an intransigent view and their approach has most definitely hardened a lot of people's opinion of them imo.
They have been underhand and vindictive which is nothing new for them.

The EU are petrified of the UK making a success of brexit and are also **** scared of managing without our financial contribution. We succeed when we leave and others will want it too, so the EU are desperate to make us fail or stall for long enough so that we will somehow change our minds.
We will make a success of brexit, despite all the barriers put in our way, even if it takes a few years. We have managed without them before and certainly will again.

I can't wait to get all this **** behind us and forge ahead.

We should tell them to start negotiating on the terms set out to date or we will walk away.

 

[TheBigDipper]

It takes a minimum of two parties to negotiate. If one party refuses to compromise on anything, it isn't a negotiation.

You cannot reach agreement with a brick wall, particularly if the brick wall's greatest wish is to come down on your head.

You cannot negotiate with a man who consistently views you as an enemy, either. If we are continually suspicious then it just puts up barriers that prevent compromise because compromise and win-win negotiations require trust. If you're not prepared to trust the other side then don't bother negotiating, but at least be honest about it to your public.

 

[sb_73]

They can't even sort out Catalonia. It's not a strong hand Sb it's a bullying fist. Forget the 27, as there are only 2 countries that matter.

It always amazes me at just how one-sided you see things. Our Government are a useless bunch, as are nearly all the politicians of all shades in this era imo, but the EU have so obviously taken an intransigent view and their approach has most definitely hardened a lot of people's opinion of them imo.
They have been underhand and vindictive which is nothing new for them.

The EU are petrified of the UK making a success of brexit and are also **** scared of managing without our financial contribution. We succeed when we leave and others will want it too, so the EU are desperate to make us fail or stall for long enough so that we will somehow change our minds.
We will make a success of brexit, despite all the barriers put in our way, even if it takes a few years. We have managed without them before and certainly will again.

I can't wait to get all this **** behind us and forge ahead.

We should tell them to start negotiating on the terms set out to date or we will walk away.

I don't want the EU to fail. For their sake, I hope they kick out the federalist leaders.

The EU are close to overplaying their hand on Brexit. Every concession has to come from the UK. The EU hasn't recognised once that the success of its members depends in part, an important part, on trade with the UK. Brinkmanship is one thing, obdurate bloody mindedness is another.

Interesting that Theresa May's reasonableness in Florence and unyielding thereafter has (cautiously) gone down well with the British public. Interesting too that Toxic Tony Blair, when asked about Corbyn on the Today program today said, with recent Tory chaos over Fallon, Patel and Johnson, Corbyn ought to be 15 points ahead. Yet recent polls have the Tories slightly ahead.

The Mrs May’s triumvirate attack! I’m privileged. We just see things differently, or you have insights and information not available to me. We’ll see what happens and you will blame the EU for it.

And anyway this stuff pales into insignificance if just a fraction of the stuff I have been reading about future possibilities actually happens.

 

[rangercol]

The Mrs May’s triumvirate attack! I’m privileged. We just see things differently, or you have insights and information not available to me. We’ll see what happens and you will blame the EU for it.

And anyway this stuff pales into insignificance if just a fraction of the stuff I have been reading about future possibilities actually happens.

And you will no doubt blame the UK.

Are we all doomed (again!!)?

Also, I don't think anyone was bigging up May.

 

[ELLERS]

I don't want the EU to fail. For their sake, I hope they kick out the federalist leaders.

That's is what I having been saying all along Goldie. I want it to reform and we have a decent partnership with the EU

 

[ELLERS]

Catalonia is on the march tonight. I see that kicking off if they arrest Carles Puigdemont.
Funnily it's not in the top 5 headlines of the BBC news. I wonder if it it had been an anti-Brexit march it may have been the lead story?

 

[TheBigDipper]

Catalonia is on the march tonight. I see that kicking off if they arrest Carles Puigdemont.
Funnily it's not in the top 5 headlines of the BBC news. I wonder if it it had been an anti-Brexit march it may have been the lead story?

I can’t find any news coverage of Catalonia being on the march anywhere, so it's not something that the BBC are ignoring and everyone else is covering - despite your anti-BBC confirmation bias. What's the source, Ellers?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

You cannot negotiate with a man who consistently views you as an enemy, either. If we are continually suspicious then it just puts up barriers that prevent compromise because compromise and win-win negotiations require trust. If you're not prepared to trust the other side then don't bother negotiating, but at least be honest about it to your public.

I wouldn't trust Brussels as far as I could throw them. They want our money and they want us to fail.

 

[sb_73]

And you will no doubt blame the UK.

Are we all doomed (again!!)?

Also, I don't think anyone was bigging up May.

I won’t blame the UK, but will continue to criticise crap leadership, which we have in spades now. I am continually amazed by the tolerance that Brexit voters have for the way their government is implementing their wishes. If you want us to simply walk away, like you do, they aren’t delivering. If you want a negotiated departure with some kind of deal, they aren’t delivering. Of course the EU will make things difficult, it didn’t ask for this and it has loads of competing interests to balance, and as you point out an incredibly inflexible framework to work within. But the EU stuff was 100% predictable and a competent strategy from our side could have capitalised on it.

I’ll leave it, no joy to be had on this topic I think.

The other stuff isn’t doom and gloom, it’s more about the pace of change and what this might mean (totally unpredictable for me at least). Think back Col on the change we have seen in our lifetimes, especially the last 15 years or so. It’s just getting exponentially faster and is completely unplanned, there is no big strategy (there never has been). The job I do today would have been physically impossible to do when I started working 35 years ago. I think within a decade there will be no need for it. My daughter got her UCAS form in this week (first offer in yesterday) but there is no way I could advise her on a ‘good’ subject to study for a career, anything may be redundant tomorrow.

 

[rangercol]

I won’t blame the UK, but will continue to criticise crap leadership, which we have in spades now. I am continually amazed by the tolerance that Brexit voters have for the way their government is implementing their wishes. If you want us to simply walk away, like you do, they aren’t delivering. If you want a negotiated departure with some kind of deal, they aren’t delivering. Of course the EU will make things difficult, it didn’t ask for this and it has loads of competing interests to balance, and as you point out an incredibly inflexible framework to work within. But the EU stuff was 100% predictable and a competent strategy from our side could have capitalised on it.

I’ll leave it, no joy to be had on this topic I think.

The other stuff isn’t doom and gloom, it’s more about the pace of change and what this might mean (totally unpredictable for me at least). Think back Col on the change we have seen in our lifetimes, especially the last 15 years or so. It’s just getting exponentially faster and is completely unplanned, there is no big strategy (there never has been). The job I do today would have been physically impossible to do when I started working 35 years ago. I think within a decade there will be no need for it. My daughter got her UCAS form in this week (first offer in yesterday) but there is no way I could advise her on a ‘good’ subject to study for a career, anything may be redundant tomorrow.

I agree that our Government are crap. I just think that those of us who voted to leave will put up with it as long as we ****ing leave!! I do think they're trying to deliver a negotiated settlement, but the EU are blocking it at every turn. As you say, we see this differently.

I also agree about the changing face of the World and the work place. Hopefully there'll still be football and my lad can utilise his degree.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Col the EU is panicking. Putting pressure on us is just covering up their own worries. They can say "we don't need the UK" and will do okay without us, well if that is the case, why are they trying so hard to stop us leaving? All the talk of everyone moving to Paris or Germany has not materialized. Even with all the crap that has gone on with the pound/business/Brexit we are still here and not doing as bad as we were told in 'project fear'. Some tough times ahead but again I am glad we are leaving that club which is totally controlled by Merkel. The 'remoaners' can bleat on as much as they like but things will be moving forward.
The EU is on dodgy ground in many countries and if they had reformed it a few years ago they wouldn't have been in this mess.

Respectfully this is wrong
The remains and brexit people are both clueless. I can assure you that most financial and insurance companies that my organisation deals with based in London are all ready to move. We are backed by DHL and simply put we do almost everything for every major player in the world. We own the TSO ....

Millions of pounds have already been spent on countless accounts changing their head office addresses on stock items

It all comes down to the final deal
And of course what the British government will come up in order to make the city stay

This is just a lull nothing more

It could go either way

If there is an exodus then it looks very bad indeed