I think we may of already done that Again I state with the general feelings about the EU it would crazy if we just left with a massive cost to us only to see the EU reform anyway Maybe the UK is guaging this ?
I think that very sad and very long list is well worth posting Stroller, and to argue the Tory government has no responsibility having been the governing party for so many years is extremely blinkered. Ironic too to refer to the Iraq invasion when that wrong course would have been taken by a Tory government, and with far greater support among Tories than it ever had from Labour, or Liberals come to that.
The difference the U.K. does not understand is that French politicians know at the end of the day they work for the people. Sure inside politics there will always those just on a career path... the French see through that imo and if support is lost in France you are gone very quickly Do not believe the English media take on France it is wrong France is still a republic and it’s very easy to understand how English people cannot understand this On average they base their views on the media and have about depth of understanding that equates to a booze cruise in the 80’s, frogs legs and garlic France is in a battle to reform based around finance and business It sort of bumbles along with a feeling of inefficiency because generally other things are more important in life than getting rich and climbing a property ladder France and Germany produce things and lead the world in so many sectors. Of course the U.K. is a very important marketplace so they need it but the we are currently out of control consumers on borrowed money who live to a code of relentless routine. If people here think we hold all the cards then they are wrong simply because if our credit runs dry what are you going to use for money. The £ will not be able to compete Just on cars as it’s our second mortgage in effect a U.K. family has 5 generations of them to a typical French family We also have one of most evil things and it’s our property market imo Yes France has cities with dense populations and hectic out of control routines but generally they have a different core value to fall back on which unites them. We have Cul de Sacs full of people trying to out do each other which they never admit to but at the very least they only care about themselves
I still say that certain things should be off limits for political posturing and point scoring. People’s death, suffering, and grief should be one of those things.
As a general principle, I don't agree with you, WLW. If it's provable that political decisions resulted in people dying that otherwise would have lived, I think it's something that we should be discussing. Putting it off limits only hides the cause and lets it continue. I'm not talking about the specific example from yesterday, just the principle in general. Proof, however, seems to have taken a more fluid nature than it used to - with people calling scientific facts "fake science" and the denial that something happened as being a conspiracy (and vice versa). The quality of information, the belief in its accuracy and the conclusions that we draw from them have all vanished into an "us and them" agenda. Divide and rule was never so easy...
The list Stroller shared is well worth the publicity if it helps bring about any improvement to life destroying policy and/or administration failures. You posted a number of very valid comments, which I for one agree with, on the shootings in Las Vegas thread, which also concern people's death, suffering, and grief. Presumably you hope for changes to gun laws there to reduce loss of life, and equally to changes to harsh social policy/administration in the UK causing or attributing to loss of life.
If the death, suffering and grief are directly attributable to government policy, it is worthwhile and necessary to draw attention to it, I would say. I can accept that it was lazy of me to copy the list that I saw on Facebook without checking it, and that there may have been other factors affecting some of the sad cases. However, the suicide of Julia Kelly (which I drew attention to earlier) was declared by the coroner to be directly linked to the removal of her benefits. Why should that be off limits?
Stroller clearly posted his list to point a finger at his beloved “nasty Tory murderers”, which is an obscene and for me abhorrent stance to take. Theresa May did not kill any of those people, and to suggest she’s criminally culpable is shocking and possibly libellous. The situation in the US regarding gun violence is equally shocking, but I would never accuse a single politician or party of being complicit and culpable in any specific murders. Same with deaths due to the stupid health system they have there. See the difference?
Posting an unresearched list of eighty five specific deaths, blaming them all on Tory policy, and then backtracking to just one? Your post has lost any credibility you might have been looking to achieve. Sorry...
Well, no. I started checking them at random, and that was the third one I looked at. I deliberately didn't use the first two, because I thought that you would find reasons to dismiss them. Why not give me an answer on that case? On second thoughts, don't bother. I can feel the waves of hate from certain individuals and boredom from others, so I'll give it a rest.
I see a big difference between your rewrite of Stroller's post, to what he actually wrote. Otherwise in regard to your principle about people's grief being off limits, no.
No. Individuals are ultimately responsible for policy and the consequences of the policy. There is a direct causal line between say, the legality of semi automatic weapons and the means to make those weapons fully automatic in the USA and deaths caused by adapted semi automatic weapons. No one is saying that the congressmen and women who consistently refuse to change the law want to see gunshot deaths, or that the individual perpetrators don’t bear responsibility, but the people who have the power to set the conditions in which these things happen bear some culpability for them happening. Similarly, I would not say that the government intended to cause distress and perhaps deaths by its approach to benefits assessments, but if a link between the two can be proven, the government, and individuals within it, should be held accountable. If, as I suspect, it’s an incompetent system, they also bear responsibility for setting up something which is not fit for purpose. I didn’t read Stroller’s list because it was too depressing, and the subsequent exchanges weren’t very uplifting either. I have no idea if a causal link between unjust (I.e outwith the rules - even if you don’t agree with the rules they are what the assessments have to be made against) refusal of benefits has lead to deaths. I would imagine that if it could be proved legal action should result, perhaps brought by the groups campaigning against this system (obviously the individuals directly affected are in no position to do this). Strikes me that this would be a more fruitful avenue to take than issuing propaganda. But let’s not go down a route where individuals in positions of power can contract out moral responsibility. Why are you so anti American?
I’m not anti American, but there are such severe flaws in their society that I really can’t sit by and ignore them. I have friends living all over America and I genuinely fear that their nation’s declaration of freedom, equality and opportunity has been utterly corrupted to the point that the country could implode into another civil war.
Not mine, but I saw this on twitter - hopefully you'll smile either way: Brexit increasingly feels like a man in his 50s getting divorced because he can’t wait to get on Tinder and meet loads of 20 year olds.
An app. You set up your profile with your photos, a blurb about yourself etc. and also what you're looking for (gender, age, within 'x' miles of where you are). You're then presented with a photo of someone who fits this description and either 'swipe left' to reject them or swipe right to say you're keen. If they also swipe right for you, you're able to text them through the app with the goal of arranging dates (shags).
I've not rewritten his post, I've stated what he was getting at. and why he posted and wrote what he did. If that makes you uncomfortable, then maybe your discomfort might be better directed at the number of deaths and their true causes (many, varied, and all regrettable) rather than an incorrectly perceived misquote on a message board.
Nothing personal to Stroller, but to me it's shocking to use people's deaths, including suicides, to make political points and create propaganda, unless it can be proven beyond doubt that the death or deaths resulted from government law changes. Labour brought in student tuition fees. Do we blame it, if a spendthrift student kills himself or herself because of mounting credit card debts?
