Off Topic The Politics Thread

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
ELLERS said:
So it's just like Brexit you get over 50%, you are the winner and you respect the result.
Click to expand...
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frome-Ranger, TheBigDipper, QPR Oslo and 3 others
sb_73 said:
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
Click to expand...



I'm not commenting on any differences between you and ellers and goldie, but the rest of your post is absolutely fair enough.
I do think there's a difference though between people like yourself voicing their free speech and political and business figures actively trying to re-run the decision until they get the vote from the people that they want.
I'm sure I would find it equally frustrating had leave been the 48%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: QPR Oslo and sb_73
sb_73 said:
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
Click to expand...

I think there's a fair amount of truth in the old adage that the best political solution for this country is a (properly) Conservative government with a strong Labour opposition. Others, of course, will disagree, as is their prerogative.

Similarly, the 52/48 Brexit vote may end up being helpful to us all in delivering something that roughly works for all parties. Nothing is ever perfect, so we should all be prepared for a number of compromises, fudges and unpopular measures, but just perhaps we'll end up with a roughly right outcome?
 
sb_73 said:
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
Click to expand...

This sums it up for me perfectly. Thanks.
 
Uber_Hoop said:
I think there's a fair amount of truth in the old adage that the best political solution for this country is a (properly) Conservative government with a strong Labour opposition. Others, of course, will disagree, as is their prerogative.

Similarly, the 52/48 Brexit vote may end up being helpful to us all in delivering something that roughly works for all parties. Nothing is ever perfect, so we should all be prepared for a number of compromises, fudges and unpopular measures, but just perhaps we'll end up with a roughly right outcome?
Click to expand...

I'll have you know democracy ended in June and anyone who doesn't shut up and accept everything is an anarchist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Uber_Hoop
rangercol said:
I'm not commenting on any differences between you and ellers and goldie, but the rest of your post is absolutely fair enough.
I do think there's a difference though between people like yourself voicing their free speech and political and business figures actively trying to re-run the decision until they get the vote from the people that they want.
I'm sure I would find it equally frustrating had leave been the 48%.
Click to expand...
Yes, and I'm pretty sure I would have been as graceless in victory as I had been in defeat in response to justified objections from the losing side. There were plenty of wealthy, successful and influential people who supported Leave, but more I think who wanted to Remain, and people in that position are likely to act to protect what they see as their interests, whatever their motives (for the record I do not class myself in this group. All my activity is confined to here and in real life conversation with anybody unfortunate enough to raise the subject in my presence. I do not provoke civilians though).
Uber_Hoop said:
I think there's a fair amount of truth in the old adage that the best political solution for this country is a (properly) Conservative government with a strong Labour opposition. Others, of course, will disagree, as is their prerogative.

Similarly, the 52/48 Brexit vote may end up being helpful to us all in delivering something that roughly works for all parties. Nothing is ever perfect, so we should all be prepared for a number of compromises, fudges and unpopular measures, but just perhaps we'll end up with a roughly right outcome?
Click to expand...
Totally agree that strong opposition is good whoever forms the government.

It was my hope that May, who I saw as the least worst choice and a pragmatist, would attempt the type of 'One Nation' Brexit you describe, but sadly she, from the first second in office has aligned herself with red lines and inflexible posturing. And made it pretty clear that she was pursuing a deal for a certain segment of Brexit voters. Her 'citizens of nowhere' comment shocked and initially stung me greatly. On reflection it is, in my case, probably accurate (although for self respect reasons I prefer the recent description of 'citizens of anywhere'). But why would she go out of her way to alienate a section of the country's citizenship like that? Mystifying. But useful to me, as it tells me where I stand, that she is not attempting to take my views into account, which gives me licence to be as strident as I like.
TheBigDipper said:
This sums it up for me perfectly. Thanks.
Click to expand...
i live to serve. Probably an over the top response to what was doubtless a throwaway comment from Ellers, but the mood took me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Uber_Hoop
sb_73 said:
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between commenting on the course of the Brexit negotiations (to be fair to Corbyn, the Labour party approach) and conspiring with the EU to bring about a reverse of a democratic decision by (1) securing a bad deal offer from the EU and (2) blackmailing the country by having them vote on it (which is the Lib Dem approach).

In the event of the latter, yes, I do believe that the injustice would result in violence by some hotheads. If any on this board think the Lib Dems could pull this off and have the country take it lying down, I'd be interested to hear how they think it would work.
 
GoldhawkRd said:
There's a big difference between commenting on the course of the Brexit negotiations (to be fair to Corbyn, the Labour party approach) and conspiring with the EU to bring about a reverse of a democratic decision by (1) securing a bad deal offer from the EU and (2) blackmailing the country by having them vote on it (which is the Lib Dem approach).

In the event of the latter, yes, I do believe that the injustice would result in violence by some hotheads. If any on this board think the Lib Dems could pull this off and have the country take it lying down, I'd be interested to hear how they think it would work.
Click to expand...

Jangle some keys and distract the would-be rioters.
 
GoldhawkRd said:
https://www.thelocal.fr/20170423/interactive-map-of-the-2017-french-presidential-election
Click to expand...
Have you played with the map Goldie? It just shows which of the candidates came first in every district. I haven't clicked on many of the smallest districts, but the winner in each was still on 20 something % of the vote.
GoldhawkRd said:
There's a big difference between commenting on the course of the Brexit negotiations (to be fair to Corbyn, the Labour party approach) and conspiring with the EU to bring about a reverse of a democratic decision by (1) securing a bad deal offer from the EU and (2) blackmailing the country by having them vote on it (which is the Lib Dem approach).

In the event of the latter, yes, I do believe that the injustice would result in violence by some hotheads. If any on this board think the Lib Dems could pull this off and have the country take it lying down, I'd be interested to hear how they think it would work.
Click to expand...
I rest my case. Do you really believe the Lib Dems, even with my vote which should be worth much more than most other people's, will ever be in a position to 'pull this off' (pulling anything off must be a sin in Farron's eyes anyway)? Of course not. If you want to prevent them from voicing a position which is well within a spectrum of possibilities we have a different understanding of democracy.
 
sb_73 said:
Have you played with the map Goldie? It just shows which of the candidates came first in every district. I haven't clicked on many of the smallest districts, but the winner in each was still on 20 something % of the vote.

I rest my case. Do you really believe the Lib Dems, even with my vote which should be worth much more than most other people's, will ever be in a position to 'pull this off' (pulling anything off must be a sin in Farron's eyes anyway)? Of course not. If you want to prevent them from voicing a position which is well within a spectrum of possibilities we have a different understanding of democracy.
Click to expand...

1. Haven't touched the map. Google it yourself! I thought the pattern was quite significant.

2. I suspect you're right that the Lib Dems will not succeed and this may explain why they haven't thought through the consequences of their actions, but what they do is undermine the UK in the vital negotiations with the EU. Of course, they may win back a few seats on the strength of it.
 
sb_73 said:
Now here's the thing. If you genuinely, truly believe that the wrong decision has been made for you, your family and, dare I say it, your community and your country, how can you respect it and look at yourself in the mirror? Doesn't matter if it's a 99% to 1% majority, it would be unpatriotic not to voice your concerns. In the case of Brexit, patriotism is not the sole reserve of Leave voters, as long as you define patriotism as wanting the best for your nation. You may not be able to change the decision, but you can hold the majority to account for its consequences and try to influence its implementation. And that's all that most of the people you seem to hate for not shutting up, toeing the line and accepting the 'will of the majority' want. Not a revolution, not the threat of violence which seems to be implicit (or in Goldie's case explicit) if the decision is changed (it won't be, you've won enjoy it), simply to be heard and have their views taken into account, because it's our country too. Even though it doesn't feel like it at the moment. And it's not a 99 to 1 split, there are over 16 million people who are feeling alienated and disenfranchised by the way this decision is being implemented.

So I won't be shutting up any time soon.
Click to expand...
So I guess it is like Brexit then. You vote the other side wins and you don't respect the result. That truly is democracy!
 
So disMay is asking us to vote for her to 'strengthen her hand' against the 'other parties who wish to disrupt the Brexit process while 27 countries oppose us'. So much for an open, outward looking country. With that level of paranoia I expect higher taxes to pay for the new secret police force and the inevitable war with our enemies over the channel.

Ignorance is strength.
 
  • Like
Reactions: qprbeth and QPR Oslo
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back