Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Star of David Bardsley]

Quite the victory that a bloke who tried to murder multiple people happened to be born here as various terrorists* here in recent years have been. Probably not such a victory for the victims and their families but it’s apparently important.

Children of migrants seem to be responsible for more terror than first generation migrants. So they’re brought up here in our system. Probably more of a concern if anything. The 7/7 bombers were British born from memory.

*this wasn’t officially a terror attack for some reason.

 

[Stroller]

Quite the victory that a bloke who tried to murder multiple people happened to be born here as various terrorists* here in recent years have been. Probably not such a victory for the victims and their families but it’s apparently important.

Children of migrants seem to be responsible for more terror than first generation migrants. So they’re brought up here in our system. Probably more of a concern if anything. The 7/7 bombers were British born from memory.

*this wasn’t officially a terror attack for some reason.

It's important because Farage would have been desperately hoping that it was an asylum-seeker, or an immigrant at the very least. This is why they now have to disclose nationality and ethnicity and the earliest possible stage - to avoid rioting such as there was after the Southport atrocity, fuelled by social media lies.

You seem to have decided that Anthony Williams was the son of an immigrant anyway, and probably a Muslim, so I guess it's OK to riot after all.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

It's important because Farage would have been desperately hoping that it was an asylum-seeker, or an immigrant at the very least. This is why they now have to disclose nationality and ethnicity and the earliest possible stage - to avoid rioting such as there was after the Southport atrocity, fuelled by social media lies.

You seem to have decided that Anthony Williams was the son of an immigrant anyway, and probably a Muslim, so I guess it's OK to riot after all.

You’ve decided I’ve said a lot of things I haven’t said but that’s nothing new.

I didn’t mention his religion at all and chances are he’s not a Muslim. Might be a convert, more than likely isn’t. We don’t know.

You don’t have to be a frothing gammon to notice certain demographics over-index in certain violent crimes.

It works both ways. When it was initially announced the Southport killer was from Wales there was genuine glee on the left.

 

[Stroller]

You’ve decided I’ve said a lot of things I haven’t said but that’s nothing new.

I didn’t mention his religion at all and chances are he’s not a Muslim. Might be a convert, more than likely isn’t. We don’t know.

You don’t have to be a frothing gammon to notice certain demographics over-index in certain violent crimes.

It works both ways. When it was initially announced the Southport killer was from Wales there was genuine glee on the left.

Correct, we don't know, other than he's British. You went on about the 'children of migrants' as if this nutter was a second-generation immigrant and that this was a significant factor. This hasn't been disclosed though, as far as I'm aware. Probably not hard to find out, though.

Nearly all of us are descendants of migrants at some level. I certainly am. How far does your heritage have to go back before you can be free of the 'immigrant' tag?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Correct, we don't know, other than he's British. You went on about the 'children of migrants' as if this nutter was a second-generation immigrant and that this was a significant factor. This hasn't been disclosed though, as far as I'm aware. Probably not hard to find out, though.

Nearly all of us are descendants of migrants at some level. I certainly am. How far does your heritage have to go back before you can be free of the 'immigrant' tag?

Ok but a lot of children of migrants i.e. second generation do seem to commit terror attacks. You’re right, I was wrong to imply this guy is second generation but the point stands. Lee Rigby, Manchester Arena, 7/7, David Amess etc. The data (which goes back to 2001) says most arrested for terror offences are British-born, which obviously includes far right terrorism. You’d think someone who has been here their whole life, educated here would be less inclined to be drawn into this.

 

[Stroller]

Ok but a lot of children of migrants i.e. second generation do seem to commit terror attacks. You’re right, I was wrong to imply this guy is second generation but the point stands. Lee Rigby, Manchester Arena, 7/7, David Amess etc. The data (which goes back to 2001) says most arrested for terror offences are British-born, which obviously includes far right terrorism. You’d think someone who has been here their whole life, educated here would be less inclined to be drawn into this.

Sometimes, as I suspect may be the case here, it's just a lone nutcase with no ideological or religious motives.

 

[Sooperhoop]

"The Devil's not going to win" suggests a mental health nutjob. What's the betting he may well have been in some sort of psychiatric unit at some point. These type of attacks are far more prevalent than terrorist attacks and often they are facilitated by the very people who are supposed to be protecting the public as happened in the Nottingham case. It'll all come out in the wash...

 

[SW Hoops]

Feels like a societal degradation to me. People used to break things and smash objects. Now they break people and smash people with knives, vehicles and guns.

 

[Stroller]

Feels like a societal degradation to me. People used to break things and smash objects. Now they break people and smash people with knives, vehicles and guns.

Really? What about gang violence in the past - Peaky Blinders, Razor Gangs, Teddy Boys, Mods and Rockers, The Krays and Richardsons, Skinheads, Yardies?

What about the mass football violence in the seventies and eighties? What about the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres?

There's always been violence. I don't necessarily think it's any worse now. Social media just magnifies everything.

 

[SW Hoops]

Really? What about gang violence in the past - Peaky Blinders, Razor Gangs, Teddy Boys, Mods and Rockers, The Krays and Richardsons, Skinheads, Yardies?

What about the mass football violence in the seventies and eighties? What about the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres?

There's always been violence. I don't necessarily think it's any worse now. Social media just magnifies everything.

It’s OK to disagree Strolls. Just my perception. Yes, you’re not wrong, all those things existed through hundreds of years. But it’s not OK for it to be a daily local occurrence where people walk into stores and walk out out with goods; knives and other weapons are carried daily; kids used to traffic drugs around the country and on and on. There’s a definite crash in respect and responsibility today. Even all the gangs/tribes you mention had some code. Not anymore.
All as I personally see it of course.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Violence has definitely increased in the past ten years as has what would be regarded as 'petty' crime. Much of it goes unreported or is never properly investigated. Add that to pathetic judiciary decisions which see habitual offenders walk free again and again and there is little deterrent. The big difference is so many involved in crime carry knives now in comparison to our generation, what might have once been settled by a punch up is now ended by a blade...
.

 

[Stroller]

It’s OK to disagree Strolls. Just my perception. Yes, you’re not wrong, all those things existed through hundreds of years. But it’s not OK for it to be a daily local occurrence where people walk into stores and walk out out with goods; knives and other weapons are carried daily; kids used to traffic drugs around the country and on and on. There’s a definite crash in respect and responsibility today. Even all the gangs/tribes you mention had some code. Not anymore.
All as I personally see it of course.

Fair enough, that's how you see it. I'm allergic, though, to the 'it's all much worse than it was in my day' attitude that is often displayed by people of a certain age and always try to rationalise these thoughts before joining in (I'm 71). Perceptions of violent crime levels are always worse than the actual statistics show....

Lawless Britain? Perceptions vs Reality | Royal United Services Institute

Shoplifting is up but violent crime is down. Nice if both were down, but better this than the other way round.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Fair enough, that's how you see it. I'm allergic, though, to the 'it's all much worse than it was in my day' attitude that is often displayed by people of a certain age and always try to rationalise these thoughts before joining in (I'm 71). Perceptions of violent crime levels are always worse than the actual statistics show....

Lawless Britain? Perceptions vs Reality | Royal United Services Institute

Shoplifting is up but violent crime is down. Nice if both were down, but better this than the other way round.

I think the key word is 'reported' crimes, many shoplifting incidents go unreported due to the police response as do many assaults because of the victims fear of reprisals from the gangs that are involved. I live near Croydon where gang culture is an ongoing problem so may have a different perspective to someone who lives in an area where this is not prevalent. Certainly my local newsagent has had some seriously scary incidents in the past couple of years and had little help other than a 'victim of crime' letter...

 

[Stroller]

I think the key word is 'reported' crimes, many shoplifting incidents go unreported due to the police response as do many assaults because of the victims fear of reprisals from the gangs that are involved. I live near Croydon where gang culture is an ongoing problem so may have a different perspective to someone who lives in an area where this is not prevalent. Certainly my local newsagent has had some seriously scary incidents in the past couple of years and had little help other than a 'victim of crime' letter...

Yes, I'm sure many shoplifting incidents go unreported, but if you were a victim of violent crime and didn't want to report it for fear of reprisals, you would surely at least want to get your injuries treated. From the article I posted...

Firstly, violent crime is generally decreasing. Homicide is down almost 50% in England and Wales since the early 2000s and is at record lows in Northern Ireland. Even in London, the target of vehement criticism from the Right in the UK and the US, murder rates are currently at a ten-year low. The picture surrounding knife crime is less clear; rates increased significantly in England and Wales throughout the 2000s but have stabilised in recent years and are currently below the pre-pandemic peak. Offences involving firearms have also dropped by over 50% in England and Wales in the last two decades.

These statistics are corroborated by NHS data – hospital admissions resulting from violent assault in England are down by over 50% since 2006. The most recent analysis by the National Violence Surveillance Network, which reports annually on these figures, concluded that ‘serious violence in England and Wales has decreased substantially over the past 25 years’.

 

[SW Hoops]

Yes, I'm sure many shoplifting incidents go unreported, but if you were a victim of violent crime and didn't want to report it for fear of reprisals, you would surely at least want to get your injuries treated. From the article I posted...

Firstly, violent crime is generally decreasing. Homicide is down almost 50% in England and Wales since the early 2000s and is at record lows in Northern Ireland. Even in London, the target of vehement criticism from the Right in the UK and the US, murder rates are currently at a ten-year low. The picture surrounding knife crime is less clear; rates increased significantly in England and Wales throughout the 2000s but have stabilised in recent years and are currently below the pre-pandemic peak. Offences involving firearms have also dropped by over 50% in England and Wales in the last two decades.

These statistics are corroborated by NHS data – hospital admissions resulting from violent assault in England are down by over 50% since 2006. The most recent analysis by the National Violence Surveillance Network, which reports annually on these figures, concluded that ‘serious violence in England and Wales has decreased substantially over the past 25 years’.

No doubt it’s a mix of all things being partially right Strolls. A sceptic might ask why our prisons are now at capacity (which is probably why they’re trying to get them to leave even when they don’t want to). There are so many facets of crime and while one type goes down another is increasing alarmingly, as we know with shoplifting and the inability to deal with it through fear of attack. Statistics are good when telling one story and not offering balancing out across the whole picture. It’s a poor societal picture at the moment, in my opinion, and little sign of any improvement.
Reporters do also like to report news as a shock format with little good news heard.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

No doubt it’s a mix of all things being partially right Strolls. A sceptic might ask why our prisons are now at capacity (which is probably why they’re trying to get them to leave even when they don’t want to). There are so many facets of crime and while one type goes down another is increasing alarmingly, as we know with shoplifting and the inability to deal with it through fear of attack. Statistics are good when telling one story and not offering balancing out across the whole picture. It’s a poor societal picture at the moment, in my opinion, and little sign of any improvement.
Reporters do also like to report news as a shock format with little good news heard.

There’s been a huge backlog in the justice system for years along with prisons at/over capacity. Innocent people left in purgatory for months and even years, victims/families waiting for justice, dangerous people not locked up as quickly as they should be or for a pitifully short time once they are. Like everything it comes down to money and under-investment over years will take years to reverse. Shortage of prison space, shortage of prison officers and corners woefully cut trying to bridge that gap even once you have got someone through being charged and convicted.

Basically it’s ****ed, it ain’t being fixed soon even if we do throw money at it and it’ll always be a government trying to fix it for a government or two or three down the line so won’t be a genuine priority.

 

[SARQPR]

No doubt it’s a mix of all things being partially right Strolls. A sceptic might ask why our prisons are now at capacity (which is probably why they’re trying to get them to leave even when they don’t want to). There are so many facets of crime and while one type goes down another is increasing alarmingly, as we know with shoplifting and the inability to deal with it through fear of attack. Statistics are good when telling one story and not offering balancing out across the whole picture. It’s a poor societal picture at the moment, in my opinion, and little sign of any improvement.
Reporters do also like to report news as a shock format with little good news heard.

For me it's the lack of respect many people have for others at a basic level - these aren't life changing events, but small things. For example pushing past me to get onto the tube when I'm trying to get off; not offering a seat to someone less able to stand

And the amount of abuse many front line staff get is ridiculous, when all they are trying to do is deliver a basic service to customers

 

[Sooperhoop]

Lammy proving he's a total incompetent both as Justice Secretary and Deputy PM, failing to answer a question when the opposition knew the answer really says it all. This buffoon is in charge of the country at the moment while Starmer boosts his air miles at a Climate Conference in Brazil with Mad Ed and his entourage.

5th November, yes Guy Fawkes was right...

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Lammy proving he's a total incompetent both as Justice Secretary and Deputy PM, failing to answer a question when the opposition knew the answer really says it all. This buffoon is in charge of the country at the moment while Starmer boosts his air miles at a Climate Conference in Brazil with Mad Ed and his entourage.

5th November, yes Guy Fawkes was right...

I know politicians can get a lot of unjustified stick and it’s a bit of a thankless task but he consistently comes across dreadfully. ****ing blob.

 

[WBA2_QPR3]

His cross France taxi debacle whilst completely pissed speaks greatly of the man