Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Pragmatism, but driven by a desire to extract the US from the massive support that it has given Zelensky. A peace deal with Putin getting to retain some of the territory he has occupied and a European peacekeeping force employed in a buffer zone is his preferred outcome, I reckon.
A good deal for the US, but not for Ukraine or Europe.
And a ****ing amazing deal for everyone on either side not killed or maimed for life as a result.
Yes, might as well have agreed this outcome 3 years ago and saved a whole lot of lives.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Trump-favoured solution is a satisfactory one, but I don't think it will be a diplomatic triumph. More a selfish one.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Trump-favoured solution is a satisfactory one, but I don't think it will be a diplomatic triumph. More a selfish one.
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70bn is not 'massive support', most of it has gone to the US economy.
It's a sellout. He's putin's bitch, they must have some serious Kompromat on him. Really hope it never goes public. Their main propaganda channel had a segment on his wife being a whore ffs, with topless shots and everything. Trump is a pathetic ****.
I'm no fan of Trump, Toby - in fact, I despise the orange **** - but from the perspective of an introspective US voter, Ukraine is a European problem, and they don't think they should have to pay to solve it. I get that and so does Trump.
Budapest Memorandum says otherwise. US, UK and France took their weapons and promised to assist if they were attacked. Their promises meant ****all.
Well they did assist, but after three years maybe it's time to compromise. The average MAGA redneck couldn't give a **** about the Budapest Memorandum.
Realpolitik.
Have you seen what the US sent russia during WW2? What they wasted in Afghanistan? What they send Israel?
Not relevant. Put yourself in the shoes of a numbskull American who voted for Trump because eggs were too expensive.
Why should his tax dollars be spent on trying to solve a European problem that he couldn't give a **** about? The US under Trump will not be a World leader, it will renege on its responsibilities, bully weaker nations and kowtow to dictators.Democracy, innit?
Not relevant. Put yourself in the shoes of a numbskull American who voted for Trump because eggs were too expensive.
Democracy, innit?
It will be a world leader. Not necessarily a good one but it will. Tbh can’t see it having a huge negative effect on my life so let him crack on.
If Trump decides to take the US out of NATO, or even if he signals to Putin that he wouldn't honour his NATO commitments in the event of Russia attacking a NATO country, we could wind up at war with Russia without US backing. I'd say that might have a significant impact on your life.
What practical steps would you take to end the Ukraine / Russia war then Toby? What would any ceasefire agreement look like?
1. Actually send Ukraine weapons instead of bits and pieces of old stock that were going to be decommisioned anyways
2. Stop buying russian gas/oil
That is enough to get them out the country. Once out, NATO for Ukraine in exchange for removing trade sanctions on russia.
So Trump thinks that he can make a deal with Putin regarding the future of Ukraine without consulting Zelensky or European leaders. Ukraine has plainly been, up until now at least, massively dependent on US arms, but Zelensky and European leaders should now tell Trump to **** off. It's becoming plain that under Trump 'Pax Americana' will not prevail and Europe is going to have to face up to a likely future without US military support. Let's bite the bullet now and act on this likelihood. The US is teetering on the brink of fascism under Trump and Musk and we should reject them and turn back towards Europe. A strong Europe can thwart Putin. The USA can **** off.
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Add to that all the **** that Vance was spouting yesterday, and it's pretty clear that relationships between US and Europs are not going to be smooth for the next few years at least
We should reject Trump's USA and seek to restore properly close relations with the rest of Europe. Remember the Brexit campaign when the Leave lot were saying that they'd want us to join a European army (shock, horror!). That's exactly what we should be doing now.