Off Topic The Politics Thread

I'll give it a listen this week during my subsidised Xmas extension. Meanwhile, I heard on the radio today that both Netflix and Warner are interested in making a film about UKIP's Brexit triumph, based on a book written by Arron Banks. No more than Farage deserves of course, but who should play him I wonder?

 

That's a very good and important question. I can't decide between Vinnie Jones and Roy Chubby Brown.

 

Should we re-name this thread "the Stan and Strolls discussion thread"?

 

Is it all going a bit above your head Col?

(now that really is a joke)

 

Both good suggestions. I was thinking Eric Bristow or Jim Davidson.

 

Sir Ivan Rogers (Britain's foremost EU representative) in his resignation letter to staff:

"I hope you will continue to challenge ill-founded arguments and muddled thinking and that you will never be afraid to speak the truth to those in power."

Just another bitter Remoaner, or another expert to be ignored by fingers-in-the-ears Brexiteers?

 

Apparently, when you join the Civil Service, you swear a declaration to be professional and non-political in carrying out your duties. It's the role of the politicians to be political, set an agenda and civil servants carry it out. My wife, an ex civil servant, told me that low level staff might not be quite so rigorous, but senior staff always were in her experience.

The sentence above from his email is totally consistent with that. They are expected to point out the inconvenient truth to their political masters rather than hide it behind a reassuring lie. (If that's how they see it).

 

Makes one wonder why the likes of Redwood and Farage would be celebrating the loss of our most experienced EU negotiator.

 

Best put Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Thornberry on top of the list, since they think they're going to win the next general election.

Why is the elitist left are so disdainful of the intellects of the populace? I have great faith in the electorate in this country which is one of the most sophisticated in the world. Not all voters can or want to live in Islington or are able to afford the house prices there or want to attend chattering dinner parties with Cumberbatch or Izzard - but mostly, which ever part of the country they come from, their observations during their daily lives and their general instincts are sound whatever political conclusion they eventually reach, and should be respected imho

 

Because after years on the EU gravy train, he's so inculcated with its doctrinal messages, his loyalties to his own country come second and he's lost all sense of objectivity

 

Goldie has answered your question.

 

That's a slightly sad response Goldie, if I might say so. He is a British civil servant and not on the 'EU gravy train' - unlike Farage, say.

I have no idea whether Rogers was pro or anti-Brexit in his personal views, but, as a high-ranking civil servant, I have faith in his ability to impartially represent the UK in EU negotiations as instructed by HM government. His 'crime' in the eyes of Brexiteers seems to have been to 'speak truth to power' by informing them of the likely negotiating difficulties that they may encounter and to give realistic time-scales for securing trade deals. Just doing his job.

What I find most disturbing about the general fall-out from his resignation is the celebratory attitude of the more rabid Brexit supporters. I would have thought that we should want to have our most able people involved in negotiations - they are in short supply after all - but because Rogers is not a happy-clapping 'everything's going to be fine' type, he is seen as some kind of traitor. Sadly, a symptom of the fact that only 'hard Brexit' supporters (a minority, after all) are to be represented at the negotiating table.

 

The populace deserves to have its intellect respected? Indeed it does.

You may think that Rogers is unprofessional and no longer puts his country first (although it does sound a little paranoid, TBH, as there's no evidence of it - not even in his farewell email). I suspect Farage and Redwood know just how professional he is, and how balanced his advice to the government will be about the difficulties ahead and the complex course we'll need to steer to get the best result for the UK.

Why wouldn't they want that? Surely they're not putting their own agendas above that of the country, are they?

 

The gravy train extends to senior civil servants out there, Strolls. He had huge influence and the EU would have extended him every courtesy to keep him sweet.

Rogers was anti-Brexit, that's been established. He must have a good understanding about how the wheels turn in Brussels, and to that extent, his absence in the negotiating team will be a loss. But my strong impression is that he has virtually turned native. He worked for, and is politically close to, Ken Clarke who is unquestionably Europhile. There clearly was not a good working relationship between Rodgers and Theresa May, and she could not afford to have someone briefing against her at this crucial time - possibly even disclosing sensitive information to the other side across a restaurant dining table - he wouldn't be the first civil servant to do this as we know from the past (extreme cases even involving defections to the Soviet Union though I'm not making any such claim re Rogers).

An expert is no good if he is not loyal to those appointing him. He has an attitude, I'm sorry for it. We move on.

 

Bloody hell, a traitor indeed! Such paranoia.

 

Same reason the elitist right, and for that matter elitists of any shade, are equally disdainful probably. They believe they know better. I should know, I wear my elitist badge with pride. I have Theresa and Nigel to thank for opening my eyes to my true place in this country, and I'm really enjoying the feeling.

Rogers was retiring in November anyway. What the negotiators have lost is someone who knows the people on the other side of the table very well, and has some insight into what they want. In my experience Dipper's take on civil servants is correct (I went through the Civil Service Selection Board process in 1982 (not sure if they do it now) and ended up in the Hong Kong Government for 3 years). Civil servants are given an objective, look at all the options available, recommend one (including downsides) and then implement whatever is decided. It's surprisingly easy to separate doing a professional job from your own beliefs, because the approach forces you down that route. My understanding of Rogers' resignation is that he felt he couldn't do his job because he hasn't been given any objectives, while the clock is ticking.

 

They've just announced a new holder for the poisoned chalice. I look forward to hearing why he isn't suitable and a traitor to the will of the people in due course. Presumably because he'll say Brexit isn't easy. Just try and base it on evidence rather than beliefs, though, eh?

 

Garage had already said they have replaced a knighted career diplomat with a
...knighted career diplomat.

 

The Dulwich College educated commodities broker really hates the establishment, doesn't he? He'll probably calm down when he gets his peerage. Fun to see him treat the (unelected) House of Lords with the same contempt he treats the (elected) European Parliament. I'm guessing he's given up on the Commons, after six failures, when the good, stout-hearted yeoman of Britain snubbed him. Perhaps I don't disdain their judgement so much after all.

A career diplomat would seem quite a good choice to do a diplomatic job to me.