Off Topic The Politics Thread

Politics For All

@PoliticsForAlI
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| NEW: Shamima Begum’s lawyer has just tweeted this:

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The shyte never falls far from the arsehole...

 

Biden backs his decision but says he didn't expect things to unravel so quickly. So he did expect it to all go to **** just to take a bit longer.

His guilt trip of using the lives of servicemen and women as justification is pretty distasteful.

 

Dominic Raab terrifying the Taliban by threatening sanctions if they don’t behave. Sanctions against people who happily live in caves and couldn’t care less if other people suffer. ‘Behaving’ seems to consist of not harbouring terrorists who could attack us, rather than treating women as human beings rather than chattel, for example.

Repeatedly says that installing ‘liberal democracy’ on such ‘inhospitable ground’ was not possible. Was that the objective of being there? But it was possible, and it worked exactly as it works in the west - people vote for someone they have never met or had a conversation with to ‘represent’ them for a period of time, in return for promises that won’t be delivered. If they don’t vote for a winner they don’t get represented, but even if they do, their ‘representatives’ whatever their stated politics, consciously or unconsciously then go about making their own lives as comfortable as possible by protecting and furthering the interests of powerful individuals, organisations and corporations, who do have access to them, unlike ordinary voters. This is exactly why a broken and corrupt financial system can be propped up and actually emerge more entrenched from something like the 2008 Crash. Because the people who benefit from maintaining something so **** are powerful enough to make sure it happens through threats (the whole economy will collapse if we change anything) , promises (we won’t do it again, honest) and pure bribery (have some cash for your next election campaign). Was the Afghan version any more corrupt than ours, or was it just transparently corrupt to a comical degree?

Is it any wonder that no one is prepared to get themselves killed for such a system?

Raab unable to answer the question about whether he agrees with Wallace the recent events are a failure of the west. Literally says ‘errr’ and then goes on about ‘liberal democracy’ again, and denying that he was on holiday for the majority of this fiasco. But he did coin a brilliant new bit of Newspeak, describing China and Russia as ‘difficult partners’ rather than what they are, fundamentally enemies.

Well, we get the representatives we deserve through ‘liberal democracy’ don’t we? You had your say with your x on a bit of paper a few years ago, no more input needed, thanks.

 

Sounds like you would prefer the Taliban version of representation

 

Seems the Chinese may recognise the Taliban as the government of whatever Afghanistan will call itself, another under their financial umbrella...

 

Quite likely...China and Russia historically veto any UN resolutions concerning regieme changes for historical reasons. Whole thing is a clusterf**ck really. Seems everyone caught off guard and it does seem that Biden miscalculated badly too. Although Trump was a buffoon I readily admit the democrats failure here. Not sure Biden will go down as one of the greats...

 

That's an understatement!

To be fair, most Democrats are highly uncomfortable with what Biden decided to do unilaterally and against military advice. And then to blame the Afghan army that has 50,000 dead fighting the Taliban is despicable. It will be many years before America lives down the ignominy of this rout. And who knows what damage will be done in the meantime, due to increased terrorism worldwide.

 

One of the most powerful speeches I can remember in the House of Commons for a long time.

 

Very good, though I’m not entirely sure what he is asking for in terms of a response from the U.K. government.

 

It’ll all be forgotten by next year and in a few years time most would struggle to find Afghanistan on the map (They probably would already to be fair)
All this faux outrage can sometimes become nauseating.

What we need is another kidnapping of Nigerian school girls to get everyone behind a cause

#pray for (insert cause here)

 

Faux outrage perhaps as unhelpful as a paralysing cynicism?

I don't see much faux outrage in that speech or in some of the other comments from ex servicemen and women. A lot of the anger and sense of betrayal seems very genuine.

 

Not picking out that speech specifically and if I’m honest, at least he seems to have done personal experience of what’s going on..,,I was meaning the whole media/public/social media outrage that gets spouted out when these sort of things happen.
The outrage gets trotted out, like some fashion statement, when people don’t generally give a **** in reality and will soon move on to the next ‘cause’ when that becomes the next thing to do.

Yep I’m a massive cynic and always will be I guess

 

I'm half teasing, but cynicism is often the easier path imo. I've felt a really honest reaction of shock from friends and family I've spoken to, and have felt many media responses are more genuine than normal. Just my perception though, nothing concrete. Feels like a 'moment' and the comparisons to Suez/Saigon seem appropriate to me - and I think a lot of people seem to instinctively get that.

What we do next is certainly the challenge, as Sb points out. I thought that Tugendhat was particularly eloquent on this point: "This is what defeat looks like: when you no longer have the choice of how to help."

I suppose, to my mind, the only thing we can do now is use this defeat as a catalyst for broader debate on the right lessons and subsequent action(s) to help avoid these situations in future. Less dependency on the USA? Closer military work with Australia, Japan, Germany and France? Less involvement in foreign conflict? Larger commitments to conflicts we do choose to enter in future? The re-invigoration of NATO outside of the USA? Work towards more meaningful alliances in the Middle East? Longer-term thinking about how to respond to China's ever-increasing influence? I suppose the only way to gather any shred of positivity from this defeat would be to use it to come up with proper answers to those questions, and no doubt many more.

 

Lots of talk today about how we're going to help Afghan refugees, which sounds good. The numbers quoted are a drop in the ocean, though.

Johnson says he'll judge the Taliban on their actions, not their words. Let's judge our government in the same way.

 

Talking to my staunch liberal anti Trump boss in the US earlier, reckons Biden has lost the plot entirely. Also very worried that the anti-vaxxers v vaxxers split in the US, usually along typical political lines, is yet another toxic fault line. My company having real issues having mandated the wearing of masks in offices again, due to rising infection rates and saying all employees (in the US) must be vaccinated by November to continue in employment. Big kick back apparently (in a company that runs on science, go figure) not helped by triumphalism by the pro vaxxers.

What a mess. Iran and China gleeful onlookers.

 

I know it's a cesspit at the best of times, but have you looked at cafepharma any time in the last 12 months? Horrendous how many people in a science led industry have such odd views on COVID

 

In over 20 years in the industry I had never looked at it. Now I have and can’t erase the memory…..there is a thread dedicated to my company’s decision, ugly.

 

Those who have never fought for the colours they fly etc.

Unfortunately, those that send soldiers into battle have rarely felt the whizz of a round go by.

Excellent speech, but I'm not sure what we alone can do.
We certainly are trying our utmost to bring as many Afghans out, along with our people, plus organising the welcoming of refugees.

I don't agree that people have died for nothing.
Many, many things were achieved and what girls have had the opportunity to learn can't be unlearned (borrowed from Ben Wallace).
If one of mine had died out there I'd also think it wasn't worth it, but I actually agreed with going in after 911.
Unfortunately, as usual, there's an almighty mess left behind.