I hope we don't end up with Scotland leaving the Union - in or out of the EU - but we'll see. You?
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I hope we don't end up with Scotland leaving the Union - in or out of the EU - but we'll see. You?
I wouldn't choose to see them go, but it's entirely a matter for Scotland. If there is to be another independence referendum, they'll need to be sure the EU will survive and of how onerous the terms will be imposed by the EU on a small joining member. Scotland won't automatically get the benefits that had been afforded to the UK as a whole
Also if they did vote to leave how long would it be before the would be admitted to the EU, assuming they would be admitted.
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My apologies to you Rhino I don't think I was referring to your post particularly with the ' not a racist comment' it was the old woman bit I was responding too, but I would not wish to cause you any upset and for that I apologise.
Yes Col does a good job of defending himself, I was just getting a bit fed up with the some of name calling on what has been a good thread with good arguments from both sides.
Cate
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Set out below are my early, possibly incoherent, thoughts. These are very much simplistic, idealistic and broad brush, and I don't doubt for a second that others will have better ideas which I would be happy to embrace. I've dipped in and out of writing this over the course of what has been an unusual day for me in an unusual and stressful week (as Mrs Uber has had an operation and I've been Daddy Day Care whilst trying to do justice to those that fund me), so that's me getting my retaliation in first.
Access to the free market vs. free movement of people
I really don't see a huge problem here, but perhaps the EU will? Of course, the UK should want to continue to play in the free market. Is it really free, or do you have to pay to play? Whatever, it seems reasonable to me to want to remain a member of the EEA, or do something similar to Switzerland whereby the UK can play by virtue of a series of bilateral agreements.
I believe that many who voted Leave (such as myself) did not for a second intend to deny our fellow Britons, particularly the younger generations, the opportunity to live and work in EU countries. I did not vote for isolationism and I'm sure others Leavers would say the same. This being the case, we could hardly refuse a reciprocal arrangement whereby EU citizens also have the right to live and work in the UK. The only proviso ought to be that people coming here (or indeed going there) have the financial means to support themselves, which means they migrate because they have a job or they have sufficient wealth/savings. I'm sure there's a deal in there somewhere for students wishing to study abroad or come here to learn.
Of course, if you're earning then you're presumably paying taxes. And if you're paying taxes, then it seems reasonable that you become entitled to access the same services that others living and working in the same country can access. If you move abroad (or here) to retire, then you should have the financial means and should expect to have to pay for healthcare etc. - should there be some sort of transfer of benefits mechanism between countries? I personally wouldn't permit the free movement of EU (and therefore also UK) peoples that don't meet this simple criteria - why would we want people coming here simply to access benefits, and why would an EU country want one of our citizens only intending to do the same? Seems fair and reasonable to me. Of course, such an arrangement would preclude out of work peoples coming here (or going there) for work, but reciprocal schemes can be set up to recruit abroad, can't they?
I'd like to see some sort of visa requirement to live and work in this country, but of course this should be a straightforward process for an EU citizen.
Laws
There's lots of talk about there being a huge amount of work ahead changing all the laws that we don't like. In my simple way of thinking, for the short-to-mid-term it should just be a case of substituting the European Court for a UK supreme court type thingy as final arbiter for those myriad laws that we seem to make up as we go along, then rely on test cases to define in practice. Stick these laws into Word and I'll do an 'edit, replace' on them. Sorted. The other laws we pace ourselves over. The important thing is that we don't ride roughshod over many of the existing laws just because we now can, particularly those concerning employment where I know there is real fear amongst the workforce that things will be changed to make it easier to dismiss employees. This supreme court type thingy should be properly constituted, apolitical and accountable - this will be a challenge, I don't doubt.
Immigration
Of course we should better control our borders, but I don't doubt that we could have been doing this for many years anyway. I've suggested a form of visa requirement for EU citizens, easy if they can self-fund their stay, even better if they have work and pay taxes, harder bordering on 'hard luck son' if they have nothing. As with everything I propose, I would expect arrangements with the EU to be reciprocated 'cos that's fair, innit?
Immigration from elsewhere in the world would have to be subject to our version of the Oz points system, but one that takes into account who's over here from the EU as well. Of course we should take in refugees - I won't debate who's a refugee and who isn't, but feel suspicious when I see footage from Calais of predominantly young, fit and able men - but would prefer a change in foreign policy whereby we cease destabilising other regions without a plan to deal with the displaced arsing from prosecuting such a foolhardy policy. Another can of worms that I'll leave for others to comment upon.
Other key areas? Let me know and I'll give you my thoughts. I said ages ago that I didn't think life after a Leave vote should feel that different; and in many respects it shouldn't.
It's because 75% of the FTSE 100 companies' profits are earned outside of the U.K. But their profits are reported in sterling, so a lower £ (and that is not rallying so well, and will go down again once the Bank of England lowers interest rates sometime over the summer) means higher profits, simply through currency exchange. Many of these companies (Pharma, mining etc) are seen as 'safe haven' investments in times of uncertainty. A more accurate idea of the U.K. is given by the FTSE 250, which is more domestically focussed. It has also rallied this week, but is still about 7% down on pre referendum, from a low of 14% down.
Make sense?
No harm done. I do agree some posters have lowered the tone of the debate so on the whole I've stayed off it as I knew I'd be tempted....
Who knew that we were such a political bunch, SB, Goldie, Ubes, Ellers & Col (sorry if I left have left you out) have had held and continue to hold a really good and informative debate, my worry is the debate may just run and run though.
This whole debate has let JFH have a very quiet summer with almost none of the usual comment on matters R's. It's moaning about our owners, manager & players that I miss.
No chance. It's just that Kranky woman Stirling up s@it (did you like the play on words)?. Spain has already said no. They need Westminster to say yes first which ain't happening. They would lose £8.6B from us which they cannot afford and many banks big business would leave. TBH i know you hear a few Scots on TV saying they would leave now but when it comes to it they know they would be better off with us. It has nothing to do with being in the EU it's just an agenda of that Kranky. It won't happen.
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Thanks Ubes. That's a coherent and logical set of ideas. Who do you vote for get them? I suspect the laws bit may be more complicated than you'd like.
I would really like the whole EU to operate on the principal that intra EU migration is founded on actually having a job before you travel. I think I suggested this way back on the thread. The onus should be on the employer to show that they have tried and failed to recruit locally, and that they have recruited appropriately qualified people, and will help them, at least temporarily, with accommodation etc when they arrive.
Yeah, that's the problem - there's nobody with sufficient gravitas, ability or trustworthiness to deliver this. But what was one to do: vote Remain because of this and never get the chance again, or vote Leave and see what happens? I went the irresponsible route.
Interesting discussion between political commentators on the radio. They reckon May could be installed as leader and PM by the end of the week, mainly because the Tory MPs recognise that they can't leave the country in limbo. Some will vote Angela Lansbury ("not a household name in her own household" and not even a cabinet minister) to get Gove out of the run off. I suppose the hope is that May gets a massive win in the first ballot and all the others withdraw. No one even talking about the Fox and Lobster, except as a nice little country boozer in Lower Slaughter. I hope this happens, it's not a democratic way to select a PM having 150,000 Tories pick anyway, their MPs are bizarrely more representative, let's skip it and get on with it. So we may see pretty soon whether she has a little gravitas, ability and trustworthiness ( a great set of attributes for a leader by the way).
Labour is royally ****ed. Talk about splitting the leadership so the parliamentary party has its own leader and Corbyn stays on as leader of party members. Seems a bit bizarre. Just as likely the party will split. So at least May won't be distracted by an effective opposition.
It's not a simple as that Sb. The first vote will be by MP's to pick the final 2 then it will go to 150K members to choose (as you probably know). MP's will support AL and not as many for Gove (as you said). However, many won't want May to just get selected without another candidate as it will be seen as a con. The Tory voters will probably like AL more because she was a Brexit campaigner whereas May wasn't. Never underestimate the quiet Tories as they got David Cameron in when everyone thought it would be another hung Parliment.
Not if all the others withdraw in the interests of the country, and when they realise that the vast majority of MPs don't want them. If the Tories end up with a leader selected by party activists and not supported by the MPs they are in exactly the same boat as Labour.
We'll see. I'm just a little pissed off by being held hostage by Tory party internal politics (yeah, thanks for that too Dave) while the country is facing the biggest constitutional, and possibly economic, challenge for a generation.
May has played her cards pretty well, staying under the parapet throughout the referendum campaign and remaining uncontroversial to boot (or kitten heel).
Always amuses me when chaps like Gove go into 'reach out' mode after a career hewn from tough talking; not convincing like crocodile tears.
'Lansbury' is scuppered now that she has IBS' support, not that she had much chance anyway.
I agree that the PM / Tory leadership borefest needs to be resolved soonest, but it'll still leave the dilemma of just who has the minerals to lead the negotiations with the EU?
A good post, although I was a remainer, there are some good points here. Britain could have done more to control immigration within the framework of EU. law. When I came to Germany it was always clear that you could not claim from the system until you had been paying into it for some time, and I have always been required to pay into the German health system - if Britain has been doing things differently then it is not down to the EU. The position now on free movement is a difficult one - Britain is covoured by the Vienna Convention, which has nothing to do with the EU. It says that nobody can be deprived of an unrestricted residence permit once it has been given (all EU. citizens in the UK. currently have this) - so there can be no talk of repatriation of those already there. Britain would be covoured by EU. laws on free movement until the end of the negotiations of Article 50 - meaning that anyone coming to Britain within that time would also automatically have an unrestricted residence permit (which could not be subsequently taken away) - there is naturally a danger that there will be a rush to beat the deadline here ! So, as a result of Brexit, immigration could well go up over the next 2+ years - did the Brexiters tell anyone this ?
Thank Cologne. I would hope that the majority of Leavers did not vote for an isolationist, closed door policy with EU citizens. Like probably all of us I have met and befriended many EU citizens that have come here to work and integrate. I'd rather direct my ire towards the feckless and lazy British trash that would rather take benefits than uproot themselves a hundred miles to get work* and support their families. I admire all those that have come here, EU or not, to integrate, work, learn the lingo and make a contribution to the greater good.
*as distinct from those in other circumstances.