Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Polling showed individual commitments in their manifesto were popular, when put to the public as individual questions. The most significant poll (and the only one that matters) showed that collectively they weren't as popular as what was on offer from Theresa May after one of the worst run political campaigns in modern history! And I would imagine that we'd agree that May's manifesto wasn't all that popular.
When asked "Do you support the nationalisation of the railways?" by a pollster, it's easy for that question to garner support. In context, when asked whether people support nationalising the railways, and the utilities, and increasing spending on childcare, the NHS, ending tuition fees, which would mean putting taxes up for individuals and businesses, and not paying off any national debt, people come up with a very different answer (and always have).
I just don't see the evidence - putting the rights and wrongs of the policies to one side - that the public has had a wholesale change of mood. Which is why, if I was of a left leaning persuasion, I'd be fully supportive of a slightly more moderate position, which I think Starmer can deliver.
Perhaps, however, I'm too cynical and your optimism will win the day. It's fantastic to be an optimist, and much needed when following the R's
Edit - I guess I'm a pragmatist to my core, and as much as anything, this is also a question of pragmatism vs principle; which often also shapes how one sees the future. Plus, I was wrong about the results for Trump, Brexit, 2017, and 2015, so I'm [slowly] learning not to make predictions with any certainty...
As a Tory supporter (albeit less dyed-in-the-wool than some on here) and an admitted cynic and pragmatist, how do you rationalise this government's monetary response to the current crisis? (One which I fully support by the way). It's a bit socialist isn't it? Capitalism doesn't seem to work in a national crisis. But then there has to be a payback, doesn't there? We've only just come out of a cruel and unfair austerity imposed by the Cameron/Osbourne regime, do you think that the electorate will vote for the same again, but more extreme? I don't.
Blonde guy. Shortest ICU stay in the history of the illness but the longest recovery.
Cant say I've seen him, heard loads about him but not seen him.
First year at university free and a pension age of 65 look likely to be amongst the first things to go
Gap year will be free and pension age 99 only with a positive test for coronavirus.
I think you might be penalized for taking the gap year and not having 83 years of national insurance contributions
Another fault of Brexit? Maybe you should have asked why Labour spent all our money and caused austerity?
Mate it’s a fact that our pandemic provisions were far superior a decade ago and have been de-prioritised to save money.
I'd say a vegan sausage and mushroom casserole would have far more chance of getting into 10 Downing St than Jeremy Corbyn...
I didn't vote Tory at the last general, just for the record! But you're right on the whole, I lean centre-right.
As for the economic question, I'm not entirely uncomfortable with the idea of deficit spending to deliver a stimulus, but - and it's an important but - that should be delivered after a Govt has been prudent in its spending prior to a stimulus package being required (i.e. the good times).
To directly contrast 2008 with the current situation, the Blair/Brown governments inherited an extremely strong economy but overspent in later years, particularly from 03-07. To then also spend through the banking crisis meant there was no credible option but to cut from 2010 onwards, hence the Darling plan at the time was also for deep cuts from 2010-15. The spending cuts since 2010 actually make a stimulus package now entirely consistent with good economic policy (from a Keynsian perspective).
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Interesting that you are a fan of Keynesian economics (as am I), but, whilst I would dispute your historical analysis, I thought we were discussing the future and would prefer to focus on that. As I pointed out, capitalism doesn't work in a national crisis, and I think that when we emerge from the current situation there might be an appetite for a new attitude towards fiscal policy. More tax and spend, a bigger state, a focus on the people and the organisations that everyone can now see are the most important to society (and yes, there is such a thing). We've had the bankers' crash and we bailed them out at a massive cost to mostly the poorest in society. Surely this time the richest should make the biggest contribution? The Tory party won't do that.
Interesting that you are a fan of Keynesian economics (as am I), but, whilst I would dispute your historical analysis, I thought we were discussing the future and would prefer to focus on that. As I pointed out, capitalism doesn't work in a national crisis, and I think that when we emerge from the current situation there might be an appetite for a new attitude towards fiscal policy. More tax and spend, a bigger state, a focus on the people and the organisations that everyone can now see are the most important to society (and yes, there is such a thing). We've had the bankers' crash and we bailed them out at a massive cost to mostly the poorest in society. Surely this time the richest should make the biggest contribution? The Tory party won't do that.
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Late now. Just finished up my work. Sorry, was answering your question on how to justify the govt monetary response from a capitalist perspective and articulating why I think they've been broadly consistent with economic norms. Will pick up on questions about the future (who knows!) tomorrow.
Tax and spend - there's going to be a ton more tax to pay massive debts in a recession (and yes, the Tories will have to put taxes up - Sunak has indicated this - presumably helped by the fact that taxes in most Western countries will be going up too) - but spend? Where is the money coming from to spend? There's only so much a government can borrow before it becomes a basket case that no one will lend to.
This pandemic will force the Tories to wear some of Labour's fiscal clothes - which could leave Sir Kier embarrassed
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so by that way of thinking any level of financial problems caused by the pandemic is all on the Torys right?