Off Topic The Politics Thread

[kiwiqpr]

Diane Abbott's son accused of assaulting police officer outside Foreign Office

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Diane Abbott, the shadow home secretary, on Tuesday night tried to prevent The Telegraph from publishing details of a court hearing at which her son was accused of assaulting a police officer Credit: Heathcliff O'Malley

• Martin Evans, Crime Correspondent
• Robert Mendick, Chief Reporter

Diane Abbott, the shadow home secretary, on Tuesday night tried to prevent The Telegraph from publishing details of a court hearing at which her son was accused of assaulting a police officer.
Lawyers acting for the Labour front-bencher wrote to this newspaper after it approached her for comment.
Ms Abbott, 66, will become home secretary in charge of policing if Labour wins the general election in a little over a week’s time.
She has previously expressed her concern in parliament over assaults on police officers and other emergency workers and complained that “for too long police victims of violence have felt like second-class victims”.
In a 2016 Commons debate, which she had requested, she told...

 

[ELLERS]

Since then we’ve managed to reduce public spending as a share of GDP and increase debt as a percentage of GDP, all while reducing the disposable income of the poorest in society and increasing that of the richest. Something doesn’t add up.

Until the global crisis Labour had debt at a manageable level. The Tories have implemented policies aimed at steadying the ship and instead smashed a massive hole in it.

You have been watching too much Sky news mate. History will tell you that Labour always cock up the economy and Tories sort it out.

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[kiwiqpr]

would they dare to print
the trouble with blacks
the trouble with muslims

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[Sooperhoop]

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Brilliant, best ad of the campaign so far...

 

[Sooperhoop]

Since then we’ve managed to reduce public spending as a share of GDP and increase debt as a percentage of GDP, all while reducing the disposable income of the poorest in society and increasing that of the richest. Something doesn’t add up.

Until the global crisis Labour had debt at a manageable level. The Tories have implemented policies aimed at steadying the ship and instead smashed a massive hole in it.

If PFI's were included on the balance sheet Labour's debt would have been off the scale...

 

[Uber_Hoop]

True, by these definitions poverty can't be eradicated. The judgment should be made on the percentage of the population that is defined as poor, which has risen under the Tories - particularly in-work poverty.

You mean change the formula to fit your argument?

 

[Stroller]

You mean change the formula to fit your argument?

No.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

No.

LOL. The thing is, people’s overall circumstances could improve all the time yet any measure will always put some in poverty compared to others.

I expect Diane Abbott will make a pledge such they nobody under a Labour government will ever be on lower than average earnings ever again.

I just wish we could know more about poverty rather than just the emotive headlines. Compare the standard of living today to (say) the that in the early 1900s. Even the royal family shat in a bucket and didn’t have Netflix back then.

Of course the State (aka the taxpayer) should always help those in unfortunate positions, but are trying to get themselves out, but I have a real issue with those that simply rely on benefits as though it’s some sort of entitlement and/or deliberately put themselves into positions through lifestyle choices they can’t themselves afford. I don’t know what the answer is, but the problem is all too clear.

The big difference between us, I reckon, is that my Fair Society is one that gives equality of opportunity - so also requires skills, education, ability and work ethic, plus a sense of social responsibility in terms of what one can or cannot support by oneself - whereas yours hates the rich bastards, wants to steal their money and throw it at anybody you consider to be a disadvantaged victim, no questions asked.

The Welfare State is growing and creaking year on year not because of the nasty rich bastards, but because we’ve created a society where it’s easy to access benefits (particularly with children you can’t support yourself) and it pays better to be unemployed in some quarters. There is no silver bullet to reverse this.

When a government tries to address this through austerity measures everybody cries foul and trots our Auntie Mabel and her veins and how the Tories have made is impossible now for her to get to bingo.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Rather than sell or save the nhs why not sort it out
No matter where you stand on the political spectrum
There has to be an awful lot of waste involved
Constantly increasing the spend will not get rid of any waste
There's no incentive to

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

LOL. The thing is, people’s overall circumstances could improve all the time yet any measure will always put some in poverty compared to others.

I expect Diane Abbott will make a pledge such they nobody under a Labour government will ever be on lower than average earnings ever again.

I just wish we could know more about poverty rather than just the emotive headlines. Compare the standard of living today to (say) the that in the early 1900s. Even the royal family shat in a bucket and didn’t have Netflix back then.

Of course the State (aka the taxpayer) should always help those in unfortunate positions, but are trying to get themselves out, but I have a real issue with those that simply rely on benefits as though it’s some sort of entitlement and/or deliberately put themselves into positions through lifestyle choices they can’t themselves afford. I don’t know what the answer is, but the problem is all too clear.

The big difference between us, I reckon, is that my Fair Society is one that gives equality of opportunity - so also requires skills, education, ability and work ethic, plus a sense of social responsibility in terms of what one can or cannot support by oneself - whereas yours hates the rich bastards, wants to steal their money and throw it at anybody you consider to be a disadvantaged victim, no questions asked.

The Welfare State is growing and creaking year on year not because of the nasty rich bastards, but because we’ve created a society where it’s easy to access benefits (particularly with children you can’t support yourself) and it pays better to be unemployed in some quarters. There is no silver bullet to reverse this.

When a government tries to address this through austerity measures everybody cries foul and trots our Auntie Mabel and her veins and how the Tories have made is impossible now for her to get to bingo.

There should be no one in absolute poverty in this country in 2019. The share of people in relative poverty should be reducing all the time but it isn’t. Inequality doesn’t need to be a huge issue if the poorest are still improving their standards of living but they’re in decline while inequality widens. That shouldn’t happen in any modern first world society.

Even if austerity was the answer, where has the money gone?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

There should be no one in absolute poverty in this country in 2019. The share of people in relative poverty should be reducing all the time but it isn’t. Inequality doesn’t need to be a huge issue if the poorest are still improving their standards of living but they’re in decline while inequality widens. That shouldn’t happen in any modern first world society.

Even if austerity was the answer, where has the money gone?

Please support this with a PowerPoint presentation with graphs, facts and humorous cartoons.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

I've avoided commenting on the Labour antisemitism debate on here as views seem fairly entrenched, but the Jewish Labour Movement submission ot the EHRC investigation has been leaked online, here: https://www.scribd.com/document/438367082/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, skim through pages 3-11. Some of this is quite damning, and the role Corbyn has played is also clear. I still have questions about whether he is personally and intentionally antisemitic, but I certainly think his actions have tipped over from anti-Zionism into antisemitism at times, and his strong anti-Zionism has emboldened the antisemites in the party. Quite startling to think that this document even had to be collated.

Edit - The 'lowlights' from the report collated on this Twitter thread for those who really don't want to go through the detail.

[And, yes, there is an issue with Islamophobia in the Tory party too, which warrants its own discussion. I'm not blind to the issues on both sides, but one party having one issue does not detract from the other, and the level of whataboutery on this important issue is stunning at times.]

 

[Sooperhoop]

I've avoided commenting on the Labour antisemitism debate on here as views seem fairly entrenched, but the Jewish Labour Movement submission ot the EHRC investigation has been leaked online, here: https://www.scribd.com/document/438367082/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, skim through pages 3-11. Some of this is quite damning, and the role Corbyn has played is also clear. I still have questions about whether he is personally and intentionally antisemitic, but I certainly think his actions have tipped over from anti-Zionism into antisemitism at times, and his strong anti-Zionism has emboldened the antisemites in the party. Quite startling to think that this document even had to be collated.

[And, yes, there is an issue with Islamophobia in the Tory party too, which warrants its own discussion. I'm not blind to the issues on both sides, but one party having one issue does not detract from the other, and the level of whataboutery on this important issue is stunning at times.]

The fact that the apology that was wrung out of Corbyn the other day was begrudging rather than unreserved and that he said he had taken care of the problem which is patently laughable shows he just doesn't understand the seriousness of the problem. There is no stomach amongst his inner circle to deal with it and, perhaps, only when the EHRC rule against Labour will anything be done...

 

[Stroller]

I've avoided commenting on the Labour antisemitism debate on here as views seem fairly entrenched, but the Jewish Labour Movement submission ot the EHRC investigation has been leaked online, here: https://www.scribd.com/document/438367082/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, skim through pages 3-11. Some of this is quite damning, and the role Corbyn has played is also clear. I still have questions about whether he is personally and intentionally antisemitic, but I certainly think his actions have tipped over from anti-Zionism into antisemitism at times, and his strong anti-Zionism has emboldened the antisemites in the party. Quite startling to think that this document even had to be collated.

Edit - The 'lowlights' from the report collated on this Twitter thread for those who really don't want to go through the detail.

[And, yes, there is an issue with Islamophobia in the Tory party too, which warrants its own discussion. I'm not blind to the issues on both sides, but one party having one issue does not detract from the other, and the level of whataboutery on this important issue is stunning at times.]

There has plainly been an issue within Labour of, as you say, anti-Zionism tipping over into anti-Semitism, but anyone that accuses Corbyn himself of being anti-Semitic needs to look at his actions. The list below doesn't really prove that much I suppose, but can anyone point to any statement or action by Corbyn that demonstrates personal anti-Semitism?

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Given that any Tory questioned in this campaign about the Tory record over the last 9 years or their plans for the next parliament responds with a statement about what Labour has done in the past or speculation as to what they might do in the future, I'd say that a little whataboutery on this issue is in order. Racism in the Tory party is not limited to Islamophobia - which is in itself rife - there are racists of all kinds, including anti-Semites. Labour has to deal with its own problems, but I'd wager that there are many more racists per member in the Tory party than there are in Labour.

Anyway, Corbyn doesn't know when the Queen's message is broadcast, which is more important than all this.

 

[Stroller]

LOL. The thing is, people’s overall circumstances could improve all the time yet any measure will always put some in poverty compared to others.

I expect Diane Abbott will make a pledge such they nobody under a Labour government will ever be on lower than average earnings ever again.

I just wish we could know more about poverty rather than just the emotive headlines. Compare the standard of living today to (say) the that in the early 1900s. Even the royal family shat in a bucket and didn’t have Netflix back then.

Of course the State (aka the taxpayer) should always help those in unfortunate positions, but are trying to get themselves out, but I have a real issue with those that simply rely on benefits as though it’s some sort of entitlement and/or deliberately put themselves into positions through lifestyle choices they can’t themselves afford. I don’t know what the answer is, but the problem is all too clear.

The big difference between us, I reckon, is that my Fair Society is one that gives equality of opportunity - so also requires skills, education, ability and work ethic, plus a sense of social responsibility in terms of what one can or cannot support by oneself - whereas yours hates the rich bastards, wants to steal their money and throw it at anybody you consider to be a disadvantaged victim, no questions asked.

The Welfare State is growing and creaking year on year not because of the nasty rich bastards, but because we’ve created a society where it’s easy to access benefits (particularly with children you can’t support yourself) and it pays better to be unemployed in some quarters. There is no silver bullet to reverse this.

When a government tries to address this through austerity measures everybody cries foul and trots our Auntie Mabel and her veins and how the Tories have made is impossible now for her to get to bingo.

Never mind Auntie Mabel, what about 4 million children living in poverty (disclaimer: depending on definition) in the UK?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...mByhTvqgCTcYUVaOO8Q9kOhekLVByZTBUP4Wqbwz_JrRk

The programme is here..

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/68553-001

I haven't watched it yet, perhaps we can compare notes when we have both done so.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Never mind Auntie Mabel, what about 4 million children living in poverty (disclaimer: depending on definition) in the UK?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...mByhTvqgCTcYUVaOO8Q9kOhekLVByZTBUP4Wqbwz_JrRk

The programme is here..

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/68553-001

I haven't watched it yet, perhaps we can compare notes when we have both done so.

No.

http://socialmetricscommission.org.uk/MEASURING-POVERTY-FULL_REPORT.pdf#page=132

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

There has plainly been an issue within Labour of, as you say, anti-Zionism tipping over into anti-Semitism, but anyone that accuses Corbyn himself of being anti-Semitic needs to look at his actions. The list below doesn't really prove that much I suppose, but can anyone point to any statement or action by Corbyn that demonstrates personal anti-Semitism?

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Given that any Tory questioned in this campaign about the Tory record over the last 9 years or their plans for the next parliament responds with a statement about what Labour has done in the past or speculation as to what they might do in the future, I'd say that a little whataboutery on this issue is in order. Racism in the Tory party is not limited to Islamophobia - which is in itself rife - there are racists of all kinds, including anti-Semites. Labour has to deal with its own problems, but I'd wager that there are many more racists per member in the Tory party than there are in Labour.

Anyway, Corbyn doesn't know when the Queen's message is broadcast, which is more important than all this.

I think talk is cheap, and Early Day Motions are the cheapest form of talk. The chapter in the file I linked to on Corbyn's personal actions, which do indeed speak far louder than his words, convinces me that he has a personal issue in this area.

The Tories do indeed resort to whataboutism when challenged on their racism issues. They are wrong to do so and they are wrong not to confront examples of overt racism, including Boris' statements, appropriately. If you want to stoop to their level by indulging in whataboutism then feel free, both both issues are significant and deserve attention without deflecting to the other.

 

[ELLERS]

Jeremy Corbyn personally accused of 11 acts of anti-Semitism in leaked dossier revealing the scale of Labour 'cover-up'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...sonally-accused-11-acts-anti-semitism-leaked/

There are also 27 in the Labour Party that have given written evidence about Corbyn. I don’t know what they have said as it hasn’t been released so I won’t speculate.
However I think a few will be eating humble pie when this all comes out.

 

[Stroller]

I think talk is cheap, and Early Day Motions are the cheapest form of talk. The chapter in the file I linked to on Corbyn's personal actions, which do indeed speak far louder than his words, convinces me that he has a personal issue in this area.

The Tories do indeed resort to whataboutism when challenged on their racism issues. They are wrong to do so and they are wrong not to confront examples of overt racism, including Boris' statements, appropriately. If you want to stoop to their level by indulging in whataboutism then feel free, both both issues are significant and deserve attention without deflecting to the other.

My point was that the Tories resort to whataboutery on every issue, not just racism.

I've acknowledged numerous times on here that Labour has an anti-Semitism problem (I'm not a Labour member, by the way) and that Corbyn needs to deal with it more robustly. What I find maddening, though, is to see and hear Tories (on here and elsewhere) banging on endlessly about the relatively new issue of Labour racism, when the party they support, or are members of, has for decades been riddled with racists and bigots, including its current leader.