Off Topic The Politics Thread

[KooPeeArr]

That's just wrong, the costings were readily available......

http://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Funding-Britains-Future.pdf

Compare that to the magic money tree promises made by Johnson in recent months.

I think you forget all that EU cash we pay that drains the coffers by around 8bn a year net (if I remember correctly).

Incidentally, I did read that Boris' new tax breaks for the 50-80k earners was going to cost around... erm... 8bn a year.

Perhaps they should have stuck that message on the side of a bus.

 

[Staines R's]

Tony Benn wouldn't be voting for a Tory Brexit that rips up worker's rights.

Yeah ‘cos worker’s rights only came to pass under the EU.
Workers rights were fought for and retained by the Trade union movement in this country for years before we joined and will still be fought for years after we hopefully leave.
The EU is NOT the workers friend

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I think you forget all that EU cash we pay that drains the coffers by around 8bn a year net (if I remember correctly).

Incidentally, I did read that Boris' new tax breaks for the 50-80k earners was going to cost around... erm... 8bn a year.

Perhaps they should have stuck that message on the side of a bus.

Tax breaks? Lovely jubbly.

 

[KooPeeArr]

Tax breaks? Lovely jubbly.

I thought you'd like that.

 

[Stroller]

Yeah ‘cos worker’s rights only came to pass under the EU.
Workers rights were fought for and retained by the Trade union movement in this country for years before we joined and will still be fought for years after we hopefully leave.
The EU is NOT the workers friend

All of the rights than Trades Unions won were fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's why Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions.

I'd sooner have the EU protecting my rights than the Tories.

 

[Staines R's]

All of the rights than Trade Unions won were fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's why Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions.

I'd sooner have the EU protecting my rights than the Tories.

The EU courts have consistently ruled against worker’s rights to *full* public ownership & collective barging—Labour could face years of court challenges from investors for trying to implement its nationalisation plans. We can’t ignore the impact of EU law on our plans—examples:

The ECJ ruled in Essent that the Dutch ban on private ownership of shares in the energy sector amounted to a breach of free movement of capital—if Labour had a public monopoly on energy, rail, water & mail, that would lock out private investors & breach free movement of capital.

Another case: Viking and Laval, amplified by the Holship ruling, clearly shows under EU law the right of workers to strike will always be subordinate to the four neoliberal ‘freedoms’. To any socialist & trade unionist, such restrictions on the rights of workers is unacceptable.

In Alemo-Herron, the ECJ ruled private employers taking provision of public services can’t be required to pay transferred staff the pay rises they’d have had if they‘d remained employed in the public sector—EU again sides with business over workers & incentivises privatisation.

Here’s what the EU Commission’s directorate-general for economic & financial affairs calls “employment-friendly reforms”: decreasing collective bargaining coverage; decreasing extension of collective agreements; and overall reduction of wage-setting power by trade unions(!).

The EU’s class character as a capitalist institution means there is a contradiction between exemptions that allow public ownership & the commitment to a open market economy with free competition that forms the constitutional base of the EU. Thus ‘exemptions’ will come up short.

To ignore the EU’s marketisation and neoliberal agenda would be a mistake of epic proportions for the Labour movement. Have we forgotten the wisdom of Tony Benn so readily? Labour *must* have clear answers for socialists on how it would overcome the EU’s structural blocks.

The inspiration and sources for this thread come from the great @LauraSmithMP who moved a debate on EU state aid in Parliament at the end of last year. I encourage all to read her statement in that debate which covers many vital facts and much more! https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...LeavingTheEUStateAidPublicOwnershipAndWorkers

I hasten to add, this isn’t mine.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

All of the rights than Trade Unions won were fought tooth and nail by the Tories. It's why Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions.

I'd sooner have the EU protecting my rights than the Tories.

That is because at its heart the EU is a socialist organisation and you are a socialist, Strolls.

I’m not, but it doesn’t make me a nasty, uncaring person. I would just happen to go about trying to solve social ills in a different way. My way doesn’t start with assuming all the ‘haves’ are evil, oppressive barons and all the ‘have nots’ are poor, defenceless honest folk, so steal from one and give to the other irrespective of merit.

 

[Staines R's]

That is because at its heart the EU is a socialist organisation and you are a socialist, Strolls.

I’m not, but it doesn’t make me a nasty, uncaring person. I would just happen to go about trying to solve social ills in a different way. My way doesn’t start with assuming all the ‘haves’ are evil, oppressive barons and all the ‘have nots’ are poor, defenceless honest folk, so steal from one and give to the other irrespective of merit.

I beg to differ Uber. The EU is a neo-liberal movement, not a socialist one.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I beg to differ Uber. The EU is a neo-liberal movement, not a socialist one.

...becoming increasingly socialist, Stainsey. It uses the contributions from the member states with the larger economies to fund development in the poorer ones. That’s why the Eastern European former communists states were falling over themselves to join and why the Sweaties wanna stay in.

 

[Staines R's]

...becoming increasingly socialist, Stainsey. It uses the contributions from the member states with the larger economies to fund development in the poorer ones. That’s why the Eastern European former communists states were falling over themselves to join and why the Sweaties wanna stay in.

No socialist organisation would implement the policies that were forced on Greece........would they ?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

No socialist organisation would implement the policies that were forced on Greece........would they ?

This is true, but that was the German's fault for forcing them into adopting the EUR at such a disadvantageous rate (to the Greeks) in the first place, and the Greeks for adopting the EUR in the first place. Trying to equalise the currency across a raft of diverse countries, regions, climates, economies and cultures is a **** idea (in my opinion). There was a time when you could holiday in Greece when the GBP/GRD meant things were really cheap and great VFM. Once they'd adopted the EUR all their prices went up and Greece became a less attractive destination for holidaymakers. Tourism is 21% of the Greek GDP. It's recovered a little in recent times. However, the Turks took full advantage in the intervening years.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

That is because at its heart the EU is a socialist organisation and you are a socialist, Strolls.

I’m not, but it doesn’t make me a nasty, uncaring person. I would just happen to go about trying to solve social ills in a different way. My way doesn’t start with assuming all the ‘haves’ are evil, oppressive barons and all the ‘have nots’ are poor, defenceless honest folk, so steal from one and give to the other irrespective of merit.

Exactly as I see the EU, Ubes

A Robbin' Hood organisation, where the Brussels fat cats take a large cut of the money that passes between nations.

If we want to help poorer nations, trade with them

 

[Staines R's]

This is true, but that was the German's fault for forcing them into adopting the EUR at such a disadvantageous rate (to the Greeks) in the first place, and the Greeks for adopting the EUR in the first place. Trying to equalise the currency across a raft of diverse countries, regions, climates, economies and cultures is a **** idea (in my opinion). There was a time when you could holiday in Greece when the GBP/GRD meant things were really cheap and great VFM. Once they'd adopted the EUR all their prices went up and Greece became a less attractive destination for holidaymakers. Tourism is 21% of the Greek GDP. It's recovered a little in recent times. However, the Turks took full advantage in the intervening years.

But in the years after that, during the Greek Debt crisis, didn’t the EU also forced on Greece a policy of massive austerity, tax rises and cuts, causing many to have their pensions cut and widespread impoverishment ?
Again, surely that’s not the policy of a ‘Socialist’ Organisation ?

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

All parties have neglected the NHS. It's the most vital service we have although I dont have fond memories of it. It has always been under funded and under staffed since I can remember. To blame a particular party for this is wrong. The NHS should be absent from politics and policies .

Very late to the party on this, but this post caught my eye when flicking through pages. To play devil's advocate, one could argue that all parties have paid too much attention to the NHS, rather than neglect it, and the over-zealous regard for the NHS has held it back from the transformation it really needs to address some of the deep structural issues it faces. Labour pumped money in at record rates between 97-2010 and the Tories ring-fenced the NHS in real-terms while cutting other Departments by up to 30-40%. Labour introduced various top-down reforms to try and improve the current system, and the Tories introduced the infamous Health and Social Care Act 2012.

I think the real problem is that people care so deeply about the NHS - which has been reflected in national politics - that any change has been limited to pumping in cash, alongside top-down reform that moves around deck-chairs instead of introducing radical change. Real change would involve closing down lots of the poorly equipped district generals, federating GP surgeries so you don't have single practitioners or small surgeries, in doing so allowing people to get to specialists sooner.

There are pockets of examples where the NHS has been brave and centralised services - stroke services in London being a good example. Turns out that closing down loads of poor services, and improving good services saves money and saves lives. Don't take my word for it: https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/major-changes-in-stroke-care-can-save-lives/

Problem is, as soon as you try and close down a poorly performing A&E or maternity unit, you get all sorts of NIMBYs up in arms and local politicians and MPs fighting closures too, all to try and win votes from the uninformed who think its better to have something rubbish 5 minutes away than travel 30 minutes to a world class centre.

Sorry, not Brexit related, and quite niche, but thought it was an interesting and different perspective.

 

[Staines R's]

Very late to the party on this, but this post caught my eye when flicking through pages. To play devil's advocate, one could argue that all parties have paid too much attention to the NHS, rather than neglect it, and the over-zealous regard for the NHS has held it back from the transformation it really needs to address some of the deep structural issues it faces. Labour pumped money in at record rates between 97-2010 and the Tories ring-fenced the NHS in real-terms while cutting other Departments by up to 30-40%. Labour introduced various top-down reforms to try and improve the current system, and the Tories introduced the infamous Health and Social Care Act 2012.

I think the real problem is that people care so deeply about the NHS - which has been reflected in national politics - that any change has been limited to pumping in cash, alongside top-down reform that moves around deck-chairs instead of introducing radical change. Real change would involve closing down lots of the poorly equipped district generals, federating GP surgeries so you don't have single practitioners or small surgeries, in doing so allowing people to get to specialists sooner.

There are pockets of examples where the NHS has been brave and centralised services - stroke services in London being a good example. Turns out that closing down loads of poor services, and improving good services saves money and saves lives. Don't take my word for it: https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/major-changes-in-stroke-care-can-save-lives/

Problem is, as soon as you try and close down a poorly performing A&E or maternity unit, you get all sorts of NIMBYs up in arms and local politicians and MPs fighting closures too, all to try and win votes from the uninformed who think its better to have something rubbish 5 minutes away than travel 30 minutes to a world class centre.

Sorry, not Brexit related, and quite niche, but thought it was an interesting and different perspective.

Along with HASU units that you’ve already mentioned, You could also add in the initiative of allocating MTC’s in the capital that has undoubtably saved many lives.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Along with HASU units that you’ve already mentioned, You could also add in the initiative of allocating MTC’s in the capital that has undoubtably saved many lives.

Yes, absolutely.

Ken Clarke tells a good story in his autobiography about going to a maternity unit somewhere in the Scottish Highlands (or maybe Islands?) where the HCPs were desperate for him to close down the service as they saw it as being so unsafe. He said, 'fine let's go out together and tell the media and public'. They all looked at him aghast and said, 'no no Minister, that's not our job it's your job!' Makes the same point in a more personal way I guess.

 

[Staines R's]

Yes, absolutely.

Ken Clarke tells a good story in his autobiography about going to a maternity unit somewhere in the Scottish Highlands (or maybe Islands?) where the HCPs were desperate for him to close down the service as they saw it as being so unsafe. He said, 'fine let's go out together and tell the media and public'. They all looked at him aghast and said, 'no no Minister, that's not our job it's your job!' Makes the same point in a more personal way I guess.

I will admit though, it does make my job a bit more difficult when, for example, we have a stabbing 2 mins away from West Middlesex or Ealing Hospital......but we instead take a 20-30 min journey to St Mary’s in Paddington.
We know it’s the right and best thing to do but try telling that to the friends and relatives of the patient.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

I will admit though, it does make my job a bit more difficult when, for example, we have a stabbing 2 mins away from West Middlesex or Ealing Hospital......but we instead take a 20-30 min journey to St Mary’s in Paddington.
We know it’s the right and best thing to do but try telling that to the friends and relatives of the patient.

Aye - you have my sympathy there. Lots of education needed. Promise you won't find me complaining should I end up in your care! I'd walk to St Mary's myself from the Ealing Hospital car park to avoid Ealing...

 

[Staines R's]

Aye - you have my sympathy there. Lots of education needed. Promise you won't find me complaining should I end up in your care! I'd walk to St Mary's myself from the Ealing Hospital car park to avoid Ealing...

That wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard that mate. .
As I’ve previously mentioned, and you’ve just said, it’s all about education. We try our best to not take people to A&E unless absolutely necessary, instead using the many pathways we have at our disposal eg UCC or GP referrals, ...but when you get people call an EMERGENCY ambulance for a cut finger, period pains or flu (all real calls I’ve had in the last few months), I sometimes wonder if some members of the public can be educated.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

That wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard that mate. .
As I’ve previously mentioned, and you’ve just said, it’s all about education. We try our best to not take people to A&E unless absolutely necessary, instead using the many pathways we have at our disposal eg UCC or GP referrals, ...but when you get people call an EMERGENCY ambulance for a cut finger, period pains or flu (all real calls I’ve had in the last few months), I sometimes wonder if some members of the public can be educated.

Quite a few years ago, a doctor (originally from overseas) who was giving me medical advice over the phone for food poisoning, told me to ring 999 to get a list of pharmacists that stayed open late! Never made the call