The non-Watford football thread

The wealthy foreign investors looking to buy into the PL just shows what a fantastic success has been created. The PL is the best football league in the world because of the riches of talent, superb stadiums and competitive games. I know we have the usual top six but most league just have a couple of teams that dominate. I think it is great that a team like Watford can attract recent England players to play for us. I would rather be watching Sarr close up next week than a cheap alternative if the Sky money dried up.

It is also for other leagues to find ways to financially compete not to artificially handicap English clubs due to their success.

 

If clubs which spend over their means are banned from playing in the Champions League as a result then they might think twice. Man. City got away with it this time, but there will be others. EUFA has the power to reign in the Premier League to a large extent through restricting access to its competitions.

 

First sacking of the season at Huddersfield..

Don't think the guy won a match since taking over from Wagner.

 

The rest of the leagues are not going to follow the English model SH. Football clubs grew up as organic parts of the regions where they are located - a club like Bayern Munich is not going to allow some millionaire to come in and buy the whole works. You need to remember exactly what a football club is - it is just that - a club, with members and a cultural history which cannot be bought like a plaything.

 

You have just said what I have been saying, the problem is outside of government, and is inside football. Does your American want to see some of the money he is taking out of the country wish to see it redistributed to clubs who once were in the football league and now in the conference? A lack of a cap only worked for French rugby for a time. Many players from the four nations went for the money, but it eventually dried up, and most have returned.
Just look at the accounts of any PL club and you will see that fans are only a small part of the income. You can say I want to buy a level of entertainment, or I wish to be an associate of the club that I have supported since a boy. It amazes me that before the Pozzos turned up we had an attendance just about making 10,000. So are the additional 10,000 all real fans, or just those who wish to buy a product that they can afford?

 

There has always been a number of EFL clubs that get themselves in a financial mess, didn't Bolton owe £150 million at one stage. The EPL is extremely healthy, full stadiums and massive interest around the world. I'm not sure many Man City fans would want to turn the clock back to when they were being completely overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours.

I heard recently a local non league club is paying a player a grand a week. This chap works up in the city so does not want to play for a league club on less money. Hopefully the board have done their sums.

 

I disagree, it seems to work well in the UK with outside investors. The Pozzos are a great example, they provided much needed investment and have fully bought into the ethos and history of our great club. Their reasoning may have been purely financial but I celebrate their risk taking and stewardship so far. Of course we could have relied on a local English businessman instead, a certain Mr Bassini?

 

I'm doubtful much profit is taken abroad by PL owners on an annual basis. I also expect most extremely rich owners do not need the money or is indeed their prime motive. They are clearly entitled to cash in their investment if and when sold. These chaps enjoy the prestige on a world stage and may actually enjoy football.
Most of the enormous amount of sky money is paid out in the exorbitant salaries of players, much of this is transferred by foreign based players to their homelands.

It is inevitable when a club is more successful it attracts additional support. The Pozzos arrival also bought exciting new talent to our club. Their crazy first year of ownership, with the influx of loan players and Zola's accent of attacking play, was one of the best seasons in my six decades watching Watford. I would suggest present Watford supporters are just as real as us old timers who often watched dross at the Vic on the terraces in the pouring rain.

There will always be business failures, including football clubs, if financial gambles go wrong. It is far too easy to look for scapegoats elsewhere.

 

The salad boys anyone?

 

I attach this interesting, non political, article which is loosely based on this thread about failing football clubs. It is about uncontrolled and reckless borrowing which is a common theme in many households, businesses, football clubs and governments.

PETER OBORNE: Red lights are flashing. An economic hurricane is coming...and we should all be scared

 

In the UK there is a body called the Competition and Markets Authority, whose job it is to look at ensuring healthy competition between companies in the UK for the benefit of companies, customers and the economy. It is therefore recognized that too much power in too few hands can lead to an unhealthy state of trading. This is what has happened almost by stealth with the growth of six dominant clubs in the PL. A club such as Watford will never be able to compete with them for obvious reasons, so actually attracts the second tier of skilled players. It is the first tier players that many wish to see every week, and it is the owners of these clubs who would be quite happy to see a European Super League, and leave behind the ones such as Watford. If you think back to the inception of the PL this is what happened then, despite the promises to safeguard the whole of the English football network. We may think that we are living in an ideal world at present seeing Watford take on the big clubs a few times each season, but it would take very little to break this situation up. The largest clubs suck up the money, just look at what they are paid by TV or sponsors, leaving the smaller clubs outside of the PL to strike the best deals they can, and rely on the generosity of the owner until he calls it a day because it costs him too much. You can want a healthy football economy for the long term, or just accept the current arrangements without thinking about the wider implications of your club having a couple of bad seasons and joining up with the strugglers.

 

I don't think that you have realized that football has a different cultural status in different countries. In England it is becoming purely a business enterprise, where it was once an aspect of working class culture - as much organic to it's location as the working mans club was. In Germany a cities football club is seen as being a cultural asset of the town or city - a little bit like a 100 year old theatre would be. This is why on match days public transport to and from the stadium is free, or why in financial difficulties the city itself will take a hand. I can only speak about Germany here because I know the country better than, say, Italy. Unbelievably the Bundesliga first became fully professional in the 1960s, although many of the clubs date back to the 19th Century. West Germany had already won the World Cup before their league became professional. As a result of this the balance of power is different here ref. the needs of the national team vs. the strength of the clubs - the German national team will always be the best team in Germany and the Bundesliga is there to make sure that it remains that way. If you were to go into a place like Dortmund - replace the whole set up so that there was nothing of 'Dortmund' left then you would find empty stadiums as a result. Football here is not just entertainment and the fans are not just consumers. The reps. of all the clubs in the Bundesliga were asked to vote on keeping the 51% ruling here and all but 3 clubs did so. They know that as a result of not being so open to foreign investment that they may not maintain a competitive edge as against the Premiership - yet they have taken that road. By the way - the Bundesliga has the highest crowds in Europe.

 

Most people are quite happy with the state of professional football in the UK. The facilities and match day experience at Watford is far superior to past decades. It is easy to selectively look back at the odd past golden times, there was an awful lot of mediocrity as well.
WFC has never been in a more financially secure position as are many other teams with wealthy owners. Football clubs are no more of a business than they have been in the past, there is just a lot more money swashing about. It is perfectly ok for Germany to have a different system to the UK, both seem to work.

 

Football is a competitive game, clubs rise and fall naturally, that is the way it should be. The problems occur when too much debt is taken on in the desperate scramble to reach the promised land. Our owners have achieved their objective of securing a team in the top tier of football in two countries without reckless investment. Bolton's present predicament is purely down to bad management, nothing to do with EPL clubs not sharing their riches.

 

I guess it's all about how you feel personally. I can't comment on Germany obviously aside from saying that it does always look great on TV and is not dissimilar to the English game in terms of how it's played.

I don't think my feelings for Watford FC as a part of my life have really changed as things evolve all the time for better or worse. I also think when we go back to the past it's easy to only remember the good bits. I cringe when I speak to blokes in their late 50s early 60s about football and so many talk about a fight with West Ham, a row with Millwall blah blah blah. All I remember is a dodgy penalty and Kerry Dixon scoring it, a quite incredible Barnes solo against Liverpool or George bloody Paris scoring in the last minute at a sodden Upton Park. Oh and legging it through countless high streets and back roads to avoid any trouble. I'm no angel by the way but if it did come to fighting I was more Silvia Conti than John Conteh so it was always better to steer clear! I love the way you can take kids to the game with far more confidence of a trouble free afternoon and at least you can actually see the game which hasn't always been the case though granted not ever so much an issue at the Vic.

Interesting point about society and culture shaping football. Certainly for me as long as we don't have a despot or someone whose business I really object to in charge (and that will mean different things to probably every single one if us) I'm happy. Obviously I want them to have our future interests at heart and the current owners certainly do it for me. I don't need to vote in how the club is run in much the same way as I have no interest in telling my favourite bands or authors where to tour or what to write.
I have no real desire to get involved with player days and all the rest of it but if others do then that's great - and i totally support and applaud the clubs endeavours to engage with the local community. Judging by the comments I see from the likes of Super horns and AndyTopRankin the club seem to do ok with involving the fans who are interested. I am pretty sure they'd both be quick to say if they weren't happy with it!

And none of this is in any way a dig at you and I'm not necessarily disputing your points. Your post was a really good hook to join the discussion and it's a bloody good one guys - very much enjoyed reading it.

 

With us I think there's definitely a few who "support" other teams and watch us every week so they can see top class football. But if the club stay up for a few seasons rather than the one offs we saw in the early part of the century those fans might well stay with us should we drop down.

 

I think that one of the major differences in Germany is that they experienced the 80s in a different way Dan. The comment may need explaining, but the 80s were a desolate time in English football in which so many of Britain's industrial homelands were wasted, and becoming depopulated. Attendances in many places were at an all time low and English football realized that it had to move away from it's traditional support base. The same process did not happen in Germany - the manufacturing areas of the 70s/80s are still manufacturing areas now - the things which are produced are often different, but Germany still has a manufacturing working class which is just as large now as then (with the exception of some mining areas). The support base of its clubs has not really changed in the same way as in England. Really fan power rules here - any rise in costs needs to be done very tentatively. This is probably explained by the fact that the members/fans have so much more control over the club. Most German clubs are all round sports clubs and so don't really lend themselves to investment in the same way - if you try to buy shares in the football club then you are also taking on every other sporting department, and 100,000+ members, all with voting rights. The negative side of German football is that, like many other european countries, they still have a very definite hooligan problem. English football is much safer in this respect, and more family orientated.

 

Guess VAR might be the only thing that stops City !

Like last season in Champions league .

 

I guess it is covered by the new rules on handball, but it seems harsh because the ref could not have seen it.

 

Bit like the Wolves one last week - a little petty and accidental.

Trouble is the clubs voted for these rules and had the goal been given Spurs would be moaning and groaning about a missed handball.