On the Phil Hay argument I only mention him because of the following. Its unreliable to use anything from one source you need to check numerous sources at home and abroad and cross check them, as we're seeing right now the stuff is a joke except for the original 4 targets. Phil is really good to use near the end of any research as he has contacts and can usually confirm yes or no. One story I mentioned a few weeks ago now keeps coming in waves on a daily basis and its getting to the stage that some UK sites are getting quotes from Leeds fans saying stuff like, this is too good to be true, awesome if happens, a real coup for Orta..... Iterrupste now a free agent from Athletico Bilbao and the guy Bielsa created. I'm still not convinced
Things are getting ridiculous with this witch hunt to point the finger of blame at one person in particular, in hindsight we all would do something different than we did at the time. The whole police attitude at the time was one of contempt for football fans who they regarded as scum, 'pack 'em in and contain them in their cages' was the mandate of every police force in the land, what opened the eyes of the public who don't give a **** about football fans was that the victims were not hooligans but genuine fans, most of who had arrived in good time for the kick off, the ones turning up late and pissed up are just as much to blame as the police who were clueless in crowd control. At the time I was a big drinker(still am to tell the truth) who would leave the pub five minutes before kick off and end up missing the first 10-15 minutes of a game but always when there was a 'big game' i'd be in the ground a good half an hour before kick off, the Scousers were notorious at the time for turning up late and forcing the gates, which they did a few days before Hillsborough at Millwall, a game I was at and the away corner pen was the most packed I had ever seen, someone only needed to look at his watch and it would cause a surge but then again surging is what the Kop was famous for during the 70's and 80's. As with any tragedy lessons are learned in order to never have them repeated and one which was the major contributing factor of this tragedy is when there are still thousands of people trying to get into a ground at kick off time the kick off is delayed
Totally agree Ringo and I detest the man but this is a joke. It turns out that after years and years and public hearings that only 2 men are prosecuted. First bloke was the head of health a safety at the club who didnt follow procedures. He could only be charged with failing to follow a procedure and was found guilty and fined £300. What was the point of that. This dick though is a serious piece of work who have had a career built on failure but he was new to the job and was his first time in command at a footy match. So even though I detest this dick I think this has been a witch hunt to sooth the feelings of Liverpool and they are now going to try again ffs. People would be wise to look at this guy and ask how many women would be alive if Duckinfield had done his job and kept peter Sutcliffe in a cell instead of releasing him. A great series of books shows Duckinfield as a connected useless twat in a series of 4 books by David Peace 'The Red Riding' series
Can't say I agree, there were 3 pens in the leppings lane end, and to let unknowing fans all go into the middle pen was always going to lead to big problems and people possibly getting killed. As the police officer in charge he should have known that. He is to blame more than any other IMO.
They wasn't let in though Chesh the gates had been pushed through and the crowd rushed towards the middle section as the game had already started, had the game been delayed people wouldn't had been so eager to push their way in, i've done it myself gone to go into a certain section only to find it packed out so turned around and moved to a less crowded section. The scousers at the front couldn't do that as the ones behind were surging forward in their eagerness to see the game, if the game had been delayed they wouldn't had been in such a hurry and also had they left the pub earlier the crowd would had filtered in easilier . You also have to take into account that at the time the authorities thought they had cracked the safety issue by getting rid of wooden stands at football grounds having previously banned smoking in wooden stands and a time when you could smoke on a tube,bus,train and a plane without anyone batting a eyelid.
Think you should look it up Ringo, the Police opened the gate as there was big queues also letting in people without tickets.If you are going to do that then you need to sort out where they go next, which they didn't. Also the game hadn't started, Liverpool had just come out onto the pitch, another officer had asked Dukinfield to put KO back which he refused.
They opened the gates because of the crushing outside, believe me the gates would had gone through or the crushing would had been outside, there was plenty of room from the turnstiles to the sections, the police weren't to know they would mainly charge into the middle section but yes the game should had been delayed, hindsight is a wonderful thing but it doesn't correct wrong calls. As with every disaster you would do things differently if you had the chance too.
Well the thing is Ringo, they had the same problem, same crushing, and nearly the same dead people only 2 seasons before at Leeds v Coventry, only difference being they closed off the middle section entrance just in time which IMO saved lives, was in there myself, couldn't breath, never been in a crush like it, and I've been in a lot. Match was delayed 15 mins for the Leeds game, the time before the Leeds game that a F A CUP game was played there was 81 when Spurs fans ended up with broken arms and legs due to crushing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The dreadful day when Leeds United fans escaped their own ... www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/latest-news/the... The 1987 semi final at Hillsborough- 'Coventry v Leeds United ... tell tales of severe crushing and inadequate crowd management and find themselves using the same word: lucky. It might be that ... -----------------------------------------------------------
Eight seasons before when Spurs played Wolves at Hillsborough there was nearly a disaster; The Luton v Millwall FA Cup 6th round game in 1985 is remembered only for our fans giving the police a thoroughly deserved kick in and not a mention of the causes to it. Again it was overcrowding but the polices original actions to it was to hit people with their battons as they tried to escape the over crowded terrace by scaling the fences, had people died that night Luton Town FC would have had to explain why it wasn't 1) All ticket, 2)Why were only 3 of 5 turnstiles open and 3) Did they seriously think only 5,000 Millwall fans would turn up that night?, the Police would had had to answer why they thought cracking people with truncheons trying to escape a overcrowded area was a good idea?, when the outcome was the same as stabbing holes in a hornets nest with a lollystick.. Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, but action is only taken once there are fatalities, the same with the roads, traffic lights are only installed once a fatal accident occurs.
Was an accident waiting to happen, but as with punching and accidently killing someone, or driving without due care and attention hitting and killing someone it's manslaughter and coppers need to be punished for mistakes the same as the rest of us.
I'll agree with you on that Chesh, they have gambled with peoples well being for years and got away with it, letting criminals carry on as long as they are their paid informers, letting grooming/drug gangs flourish at the expense of vulnerable young people and not upsetting minorities but most of all I blame governments and local councils as they pull the strings for what the police can and can not do.
