The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Monday 26th September)

That can't be right, elland and wakey keep telling us we spent more than anyone in history to get promoted.

 

Going by audited accounts, turnover and salaries from the Bates to Cellino eras. Any errors are probably due to my eyes going crossed whilst compiling all this data



Then for the Bielsa Championship era, I've included turnover and salary for all clubs in the Championship at that time.




7 of the top 8 teams with the highest turnover were all in receipt of some sort of parachute payment from the EPL (Those clubs marked in green). We were the only club in the top 8 for turnover not to be in receipt of that payment, and as the table shows we had the 7th highest turnover that season. No accounts exist for Derby or Bolton, and for some reason Villa didn't publish their salaries in the accounts (??). Norwich had over twice as much turnover as ourselves as well as 3 of the other clubs in the top 8 for turnover. We paid the 5th highest in wages, although as already stated, I was unable to find figures for Derby or Villa.

The highest salary shown for the 2018/19 season was just under £49 million, so I'm not sure where the website that published the data that Ristac refers to, got their information, but I would be dubious of relying upon that information.

For the following season there were 6 clubs in receipt of parachute payments, again we were the only club in the top 7 for turnover not to be in receipt of this payment. It should be noted that the figures published below does not include the additional £20million paid by the club to the players as a bonus for achieving promotion, which would make our total outcome in salaries just over £70 million. From press reports Fulham also paid a bonus of £20million, which would reduce the figures for wages to £43 million, and WBA paid £10million in player bonuses, so the figure below would be reduced to £49 million. However for all 3 bonus figures, I am relying upon press reports, and there is no official confirmation of any of the bonus figures paid by all 3 clubs.


Cardiff, Fulham and Huddersfield all received media payments between £36m and £44m. Stoke received approx. £31m, Swansea £39m and WBA approx £41m. We received approx £2m so the difference between what we received and what the above clubs received, is probably due to EPL parachute payments.

Without any parachute payments being made, we would have had the highest turnover of £54m with Notts Forest being second on approx £26m




Obviously for our first season back in the EPL turnover increased substantially by £117m to £171m, whilst wages and salaries increased to £95m inclusive of bonuses

 

IMO Orta has shown disrespect to Wilko, who was one of our great managers in a different time granted, but he put a team together who won the 2nd Division and Ist Division. Bielsa is certainly up in the top three and I've a tremendous respect for him, as for Phillips well as the old saying goes, the grass isn't always greener. Wilko also had the vision to set up Thorpe Arch.

 

One I took was from published playing staff only salary’s as far as I am aware.

Remember Cellino got rid of absolutely everyone, even canteen staff and the managers had zero coaches, if I remember rightly they didn’t even have an assistant manager?

A huge chunk of that 2019 wage bill would have been Bielsa and his coaching staff, Ortas and Kinnear wages, scouts.

Wilfried Bony was on £95k a week with Swansea in the 18/19 season. Ayew £80k in the 19/20 season.

Diouf £65k, Shawcross £57k and Allan £50k a week all for Stoke

Mitrovic was on £65k a week, another 7 Fulham players were on £30k a week or greater

In comparison Bamford was on £35k a week, KP £30k

Out of the top 100 highest paid players that season we had 5 players in it. The top two were Kiko and Augustin, Costa on loan was another
https://www.capology.com/uk/championship/salaries/2019-2020/

The 2019 wage chart you post just doesn’t make sense when you look at the outgoing transfers and fees received and just loans coming in, a £10m jump in wages?

 

Those players you mention were overpaid IMO

 

I’d put Wilko ahead of Bielsa, it was still easier for Wilko in the old Div 2 but then he went to win the old Div 1 (now PL) so that catapults him ahead.

When Orta refers to the “modern era” is he referring to the switch to Premier League and Championship, if so he has a valid point. Grayson might have been special if backed at the right time and given him a run for his money

 

I disagree Ristac, just because of the name change does not relegate the 80/90s football to not the modern age, 30s/40s maybe. I don't think it was easier for Wilko, but we will just have to agree to disagree on that. Anyway for what it's worth, my top three in my lifetime of supporting this club were Revie Wilko and Bielsa. Right got to head to work, talk later.

 

I’m not arguing what is the modern era mate, to me I’d agree, in Ortas head he might have been thinking since the formation of the PL which would excuse him from omitting Wilko that’s all

I’m not a fan of Orta so I’d be the first to bash him but on this occasion I’d just question what time period was he thinking when he said what he did.

 

Just want to point out that Wilko was very heavily backed by Leeds in the transfer market.

He signed Fairclough, Strachan, Shutt followed by Vinnie, Chapman, Sterland all for big money in those days putting the club massively in debt and hoping the gamble paid off. Chairman Leslie Silver has gone on record to say that if we didn't go up that year we might have gone bust.

Once up, the signings kept coming in the shape of Mcallister, Lukic and the following season Wallace, Dorigo and Hodge. These are only the major signings, there were plenty more.

Let's not forget that Wilko was backed.

 

Cantona, Yeboah, Radebe three more off the top of my head, Bowyer another

 

Wilko, wasn't he the visionary that sold Cantona?

for peanuts

 

Yeah, I'm specifically targeting his first 3 or so years which would be comparable to Bielsa's reign. You could easily throw in Sharpe, Deane, Brolin, Palmer as the club continued to back him.

I'm not picking sides btw. Just pointing out that Howard had a very big budget himself.

 

To me I'm still the old First Division guy. **** the poncy Sky Premiership. I'm not arguing with you either by the way.

 

Mickey Thomas

 

Whilst I have no problem with people disputing my figures, my issue here is that you do exactly the same as what you accuse Wakey of, and say we know X players were being paid this and being paid that, but where does that information come from, numerous random sites on the internet.

I mentioned previously that I believed Rodrigo to be earning £100k per week but couldn't reliably confirm that as numerous websites published different figures for both himself and other players at the club, to make the information next to useless.

The list you referred to was published in an article by Wales online.com, they don't reference any source, that list then got picked up by various football forums and click bates sites.

The list I compiled was from audited accounts registered with Companies House. Whilst I fully accept that even audited accounts don't tell the full picture and that I may have occasionally entered a number incorrectly, I still think it's a more accurate picture than a list of numbers published on some would be newspaper website.

I do also understand the irony that all I have done is publish a list of numbers as well, however you have the opportunity to actually go and check those figures yourself, by viewing legal documents on a government run website and not just rely upon what I say

I agree that a £10m increase in wages and salaries for 2019/20 seems high when compared to the players we signed, those who contracts we increased, but the audited accounts don't break it down into any sort of detail, so I can't provide any other information other than what the club has informed as per it's legal requirement as a private company

 

Wasn’t meant to offend you, I love the facts and figures you pull out. Those audited accounts won’t be for just player wages, it will be the entire club from top to bottom.

I can’t prove it but common sense surely must come into it when you look at parachute payments helping clubs keep players who were playing in the PL the previous season.

If you believe we had a higher paid squad of players than several of those mentioned I’m not here to change your mind, I’m just not buying it in the slightest

What the jump does show is the huge amount of money Bielsas backroom staff were costing

 

Oh I definitely agree that the wages and salaries relates to non playing staff as well in the figures I listed. This is why I queried the ones in your list, because the figures in the audited accounts for let's say Swansea are still substantially lower than the list that you used showed, despite as you have acknowledged, audited accounts not just being player related and it's similar for most club's. We are one of the few club's where the audited figure is higher than the figure published by "random website".

So either there is a problem with random websites just producing numbers without being able to provide any substantiation to those figures, or else every football club is filing fraudulent audited accounts with the HMRC, who I am sure are aware of these various internet lists and I would expect to be asking Swansea why do your accounts show salaries and wages of £43million, when XYZ website says you pay just playing staff £95million, virtually double what you have declared in your accounts.

The reason I refer to audited figures is that they are an official record that anyone is able to check out and whilst there will still be elements of creative accounting taking place, I would still say they are a more reliable source, than myself posting the same figures on a random footballing site, without any context of where those figures were officially obtained

I should also point out that I've not expressed an opinion on what I believe, I've just provided data from an official source for everyone to make their own minds up as to which set of data they wish to have confidence in

 

there you go ristac stick the bonus payments on top and my point still stands.

 

read askis figures from real accounts and stick the promotion bonus on top.rads himself said we made a loss for the season.

 

aski has shown the real accounts in his post.who is it exactly i hate ?.actually cant say i hate anyone in football.i do dislike some of the managers and players like grealish are just laughable.i do hate one person who owes me money and now ignores me and has gambled his money from the sale of his flat away which i classed as my money.i dont dislike bielsa but he did not set up thorpe arch wilko and others did that.tactics wise Bielsa had reached his zenith and needed to go simple as that.