The Great Grand Crus Debate

DanishPastry....I completely disagree, Grands Crus wasn't as far behind BB as you are making out. I'd say GC was a little over the top at Aintree, and the race at Cheltenham was a fairer reflection of the difference between the 2. Both horse's were primed for Cheltenham, Aintree was just an after thought.

Had Grands Crus stayed hurdling I think he could have possibly got the better of BB in time, don't forget GC was only 6, and id say GC was a better 6yo hurdler than BB was at the same age. I would be convinced GC would have beaten Punchestowns far more comprehensively. Obviously BB has improved alot since his first World Hurdle win, though I don't see any reason why GC couldn't improve alot aswell with another years experience

 

Don't agree with any of that at all. The Cheltenham race was run to suit Grands Crus and could not have been worse for Big Buck's and yet he was still able to win comfortably. At Aintree things went far more to Big Buck's liking with Grands Crus kicking on early and he absolutely destroyed him. I think Grands Crus is a very good horse indeed but Big Buck's he is not.

In time Grands Crus would probably have beaten Big Buck's over hurdles given that he is two years younger but hard to think it would have been any time soon.

 

The thing that really grabs me about Grands Crus is that chasing really seems to have been the making of him. Many people wondered, even doubted how he'd jump fences but we now know! He's really taken to fencing and seems to be a real natural, fast and fluent. I made the point previously that I believe he'd have the pace for an Arkle and I'd still stand by that, (well Sprinter Sacre excepted obviously), but I now hope they go the brave man's route. If he lines up in the Gold Cup I'd be surprised if Long Run would see which way he went...

 

Zenyatta.....How on earth was the Cheltenham race ran to suit Grands Crus? Grands Crus is a hold up horse who likes to come from off the pace, so the faster the gallop the better, so I don't think the slow pace at Cheltenham would have favoured either of them.

To say BB won comfortably is a ridiculous comment, BB was all out to deny GC. BB had to dig as deep as he's ever had to to deny GC. The Aintree race may have been run to suit both horses more, but I'm far from convinced that was GC at his best, I think he was a little over the top, and he went on to run a stincker in France after that.

Remember BB as a 6yo, all out just to beat Punchestowns in the Cleeve, getting 5 pounds, and then compare that to GC winning the Cleeve by 20+ lenghs on the bit as a 6yo. GC was every bit as talented as a 6yo as BB was, if not more talented, so who knows what would happen if a more improved 7yo GC took him on

 

I'll be really controversial and say that I don think Grands Cru will win the RSA - I think Bob's Worth will get the better of him at Cheltenham. Henderson always seems to have his spot on by March - I know you can argue that it's the same for everyone but Henderson just seems to be a bit better at it than pretty much any of the others. Just an opinion mind.

Obviously I'd prefer GC to go for a different race to make my 10s look massive but on the other hand i'd like both to run so i can be proven right!

 

Bobs Worth has the ability, but his jumping has been poor on his 2 starts over fences. I think he would be a big player in the RSA if they can get his jumping sorted

 

It was run to suit Grands Crus because it wasn't run to suit Big Buck's. I don't agree with your argument that a stronger pace would have suited because he's a hold up horse (he took it up miles out at Aintree, and in the Cleeve, and in the Feltham the other day). He came there travelling strongly and then just couldn't get past, simple as that. All a stronger pace would have done is enable Big Buck's to win even more easily, like he did at Aintree.

Are you serious in thinking that Big Buck's was 'all out to deny GC'? You must have been watching a different race because Big Buck's definitely won 'comfortably'. As soon as Grands Crus came to him he found another length with ease and still had his ears pricked. If he was 'all out' I will give up the game.

The RP comments in running for the final stages are "pulled out more final 100yds and well on top at finish". Most definitely not 'all out'.

 

He just looks to lack a bit of scope for me.

 

Zenyatta.....The reason Grands Crus has taken up the running early, is because the horse's he is racing against aren't going fast enough for him, like the other day as soon as the leaders slowed it down Grands Crus started moving through the field. Wether it does or it doesnt suit BB, Grands Crus likes a lead and a fast pace.

BB was forced to dig deep and was flat out before the last to win by less than 2 lengths, Ruby Walsh had him flat out all the way to the line, yet he couldn't even win by 2 lenghs? Yet your saying it was a comfortable victory. It was far from comfortable, and you know it. The commentator was saying Big Bucks is under pressure, Grands is bearing down on him and Big Bucks is digging deep. Hardly comments you would make if it was comfortable.

 

Shergar I'm happy to agree to disagree. If you call Big Buck's win in the World Hurdle 'all out' then so be it.

 

Ruby had no persuader in the World Hurdle, a crack or two and he would have gone away IMO - he never wins his races by as far as he should

 

grand crus wont even stay to gold cup trip. He didnt sat 3m 2f in france at the end of last season when he finished sixth behind thousand stars. He has too much speed, I would just run him in the jewson so that he doesnt get bottomed out in the rsa and then give the gold cup a go the following year when he is a bit older. Sonofvic is going to win the RSA.

 

If I remember correctly Ruby dropped his whip in the World Hurdle so had to persuade the idling Big Bucks to get across the line hence the theatrics, Grands Crus threatened before Ruby dropped the whip but didn't have the minerals to pass Big Bucks who was very awkward in front and needed that extra bit of persuasion to put the race to bed. The race at Aintree told you all you needed to know about both horses, I wouldn't exactly say one over exerted the other at Cheltenham but maybe trying to put it up to Big Bucks did take the sting out of Grand Crus at Aintree either way you look at it all I saw down the stretch was Ruby Walsh making a cup of tea and reading the Racing Post whilst Tom Scudamore was rowing more than the Olympic British rowing quartet. Grand Crus is potentially very very good, Big Bucks though hes in another parish...

 

Aintree form rarely stands up imo. At Cheltenham, Grand Crus certainly gave Big Bucks plenty to think about. But then, who cares, Big Bucks will carry on beating all comers in his own narrow field, while for Grand Crus the future is full of possibilities.

As for running him in the Gold Cup this year, that looks like being the owner's decision, but it'd be a bad move even in what may be a wide open renewal. I'd put him in the Arkle myself, I reckon he has the speed to be competitive.

 

Just had another look at the World Hurdle. Big Bucks was just too strong on the day for Grand Crus who had every chance in the straight. GC got to with in probably a neck on a couple of occasions down the running. But BB, despite being a bit wayward, was too strong. I don't think anyone can move from March and say with any certainty that either will be too good for the other. Over that trip, any horse in the world could come on a couple of lengths, or drop them. I'd still like to be on BB, but a GC win is definitely not beyond reason.

 

Cyc - can you hit the play button again and tell me when Ruby dropped the whip ?
I'm guessing it was before the horse started 'running wayward' ?
We know he idles, switches off during his races and pulls up in front, the help of a persuader would have seen a far more comfortable victory IMO.

 

It seems that Ruby gave the horse three hits then looked as though he tossed the whip away. ( he didn't of course. ) It then took about 16 or 17 strides from there to the last jump. Just my opinion Grizz, but it looked as though the horse went straight under the whip. It looked about 50m from the last that the horse looked either to lose concentration, was was getting tired. After the last he veered in again, but was still too strong. The whip issue is interesting. Maybe if Ruby still had the stick, he might have changed to the left and stopped the horse from ducking in. Who knows. The whole thing is really interesting mate.

 

I know we've done the whip debate to death but imagine a horse with the mind of Big Bucks in the County hurdle where 28 horses are going at 35mph (55kph for you) and he veers approaching a hurdle because the whip didn't exist ?
The potential is there for a complete pile up with serious injury or worse to both horses and jockeys, thankfully this happened at a point where nothing was nearby.
Big Bucks is a screw, he is the most talented screw I've ever seen on a racecourse (Vodkatini and Deanos Beano close though), if he ever loses it will be him beating himself and the length or so he was in front of Grand Crus in March is almost irrelevant, he'll never win on the bridle or win going away impressively, it's not in his make up...

 

He's certainly an exciting horse.