Off Topic The General Election Countdown and Aftermath
- Thread starter Ron
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I have really liked this thread because it has resulted in quite a well mannered political discourse (mostly).
Your argument that the system is a fraud suggests that the (for wanting of a better term) working classes are incapable of raising themselves to a situation that they can achieve what they want.
In France they just loped the heads off the ‘aristos’ and look where it has got them. If you are a young person in France, you will not get a job before you are 27 (unless you work in the family business) as all employment is with the state.
Your argument that the system is a fraud suggests that the (for wanting of a better term) working classes are incapable of raising themselves to a situation that they can achieve what they want.
In France they just loped the heads off the ‘aristos’ and look where it has got them. If you are a young person in France, you will not get a job before you are 27 (unless you work in the family business) as all employment is with the state.
If I had to say who are a class-ridden society then it is the French I would put top of the list. They have an amazingly elite education system that feeds through to the bureaucratic state they have.
Unfortunately with the loss of Grammar Schools in England (the one reason I could never vote Labour) we are heading in the same general direction.
For the working class the Grammar School offered a way to improve, which is all we can ask for. The school I went to was 60% working class yet one of the best in London (it is not a surprise working class people are the equal of any). It was also lucky enough to have its football teams 'coached' by QPR players.
The Labour Party destroyed them, giving less choice to their erstwhile followers. Now your choice is Public Schools or pay for thousands on tuition to cram your kid into today's so called 'Grammar Schools', or just live with the lottery of having a good school nearby you that you can get into. They took the choice away from the people they were telling everyone they were working for. So you have Blair and Blair's brats, who are no different from Cameron and his brats because it is all laid out for them.
Unfortunately with the loss of Grammar Schools in England (the one reason I could never vote Labour) we are heading in the same general direction.
For the working class the Grammar School offered a way to improve, which is all we can ask for. The school I went to was 60% working class yet one of the best in London (it is not a surprise working class people are the equal of any). It was also lucky enough to have its football teams 'coached' by QPR players.
The Labour Party destroyed them, giving less choice to their erstwhile followers. Now your choice is Public Schools or pay for thousands on tuition to cram your kid into today's so called 'Grammar Schools', or just live with the lottery of having a good school nearby you that you can get into. They took the choice away from the people they were telling everyone they were working for. So you have Blair and Blair's brats, who are no different from Cameron and his brats because it is all laid out for them.
err - the eleven plus was very elitist , people develop at different rates, so to have a life changing event at eleven years old was plain daft, also the thing was skewed to those who had been schooled in the private system --a bit like university challenge for little kids.
The whole system seems upside down , instead of encouraging critical thought , its dickensian learning by rote, to pass tests, to tick boxes, to achieve .....?
re the election -- when people are given a choice between two different ideologies ,they have a choice --a la caledonia, but when your choice is the real thing (tory) and a pale imitator (labour) its obvious who theyre going to choose --we now have the blairites complaining that Millipede wasnt Tory enough....the carthorse is dead, leave the corpse alone...
The whole system seems upside down , instead of encouraging critical thought , its dickensian learning by rote, to pass tests, to tick boxes, to achieve .....?
re the election -- when people are given a choice between two different ideologies ,they have a choice --a la caledonia, but when your choice is the real thing (tory) and a pale imitator (labour) its obvious who theyre going to choose --we now have the blairites complaining that Millipede wasnt Tory enough....the carthorse is dead, leave the corpse alone...
Doesn't make sense. The 11-Plus wasn't skewed to the Private System. Most Tim Nice But Dims failed the 11-Plus and were sent to Harrow.
You have to make a decision somewhere and 11 was the age. So you have no opportunity to change now. Take it away the champagne Socialists said.The system is far worse now with kids under enormous pressure at 11.
Yes people develop at different rates and there should have been a 13 plus. There was in Kent. But you don't throw a great system out because it failed 20% of the population: you try and sort out that 20% issue.
Kids learn by rote more than ever today. Kids are probably cleverer today: the only problem I find is that they don't know much.
You have to make a decision somewhere and 11 was the age. So you have no opportunity to change now. Take it away the champagne Socialists said.The system is far worse now with kids under enormous pressure at 11.
Yes people develop at different rates and there should have been a 13 plus. There was in Kent. But you don't throw a great system out because it failed 20% of the population: you try and sort out that 20% issue.
Kids learn by rote more than ever today. Kids are probably cleverer today: the only problem I find is that they don't know much.
Maybe. But the underlying principles on which socialism is based-a belief in a society that benefits the many not the few-will never die
There are masses of opportunities to better yourself in the current UK. Oppurtunities your parents and grand parents before them could only dream of yet many hanker for greater benefits, more state assistance. Seize the day and take control of your own life. Leave the blame game alone and use this energy for yiurself.
That's fine gazboy, if looking after number 1 is your creed, money is your god and you are born with all the advantages and opportunities. Just remember to get born in the right place, and don't get old or sick.
When I was a kid I failed my 11+ (as did all the boys at our primary school). Only girls passed. However it was a stupid exam that suited kids who made snap decisions rather than those who thought things through. Fortunately after 1 year in a secondary school we were given another opportunity (12+ I think it was called) where kids had to work things out (eg proper maths problems) and I passed that one. Without that second opportunity I'm sure I would never have enjoyed the life that I was fortunate enough to experience. If it were my decision I would give kids a chance to transfer to grammar schools and the likes at every age if they appeared to have the ability and will. No-one's life should be determined by their ability to pass "intelligence tests" at the age of 11.
Left wing socialism looks pretty alive to me -the Scots seem to like it -the Greeks seem to want it,the Spanish are keen--the Chileans wanted it, but an american backed coup brutally ended democracy there, over 30 thousand activists murdered -oh yes we know what happens to people who threaten capitalism
The greeks and the spanish? Cmon theyd vote in pinocchio if he told them it would be better under him!
The UK voted Conservative AFTER a 5 year term with the knowledge cuts would follow.
one wonders if the occupants of the slums on the outskirts of paris, the unemployed youth of Spain consider life equal the way you seem to portray it? Seems you find an excuse to complain regardless!
The UK voted Conservative AFTER a 5 year term with the knowledge cuts would follow.
one wonders if the occupants of the slums on the outskirts of paris, the unemployed youth of Spain consider life equal the way you seem to portray it? Seems you find an excuse to complain regardless!
The comments regarding Spain and Greece were in relation to the state of their economy at the time of their socialist vote but I'm sure you knew that but chose comments that are beneath you as a response. The blame and anger you portray are your defence mechanism. Try to work it through 
So Ed stabs his brother in the back in 2010, then 5 years later Ed lies in the political gutter and his brother strides up and kicks him in the bollocks.
Probably not the most reliable source but Jon Snow on Have I Got News For You reckoned Ed's stone tablet cost £30k. Wow.
Not the worst result in my opinion last Friday but the chances of much needed electoral reform are slim to nil. The reds and the blues will never agree to it whilst they can take it turns to have stint in power. This next parliament will be a long 5 years for labour but it may feel even longer for Cameron without the Lib Dems to blame when he goes against the right wing awkward squad in his party. My view is that history will be a far kinder judge of the Lib Dems' time as coalition partners than the electorate were last week.
Not the worst result in my opinion last Friday but the chances of much needed electoral reform are slim to nil. The reds and the blues will never agree to it whilst they can take it turns to have stint in power. This next parliament will be a long 5 years for labour but it may feel even longer for Cameron without the Lib Dems to blame when he goes against the right wing awkward squad in his party. My view is that history will be a far kinder judge of the Lib Dems' time as coalition partners than the electorate were last week.
I agree entirely. What I resent about the loss of Grammar Schools is that it was the reduction in choice. I don't want to be told what I should do. I should choose what I do. A degree of freedom was taken away specifically from the working class the day Crosland and his ilk got their hands on Education. The working class were the losers.
And socialism is a reduction in choice. You will do this because it is good for all of you is the mantra. I want a system where I can choose as much as I can what I do and I am able to put before my family as much choice as possible. This does not mean I don't care about others. I'm extremely concerned about others, and. I treat everyone as my equal, whatever their race, colour or creed.
Hayek's The Road to Serfdom is terribly written but still points out the dreadful traps of so called Socialism.
I don't know what the system is here in the UK. When I was a kid I had working mum and dad, lived in a council house, played football and cricket in the road (or walked about a mile to play in an open park). My parents didn't have a bank account; they used to save up for summer holidays (coach ride to Brighton and Hove), Christmas and birthdays (dad kept a record in a book - I can still see him budgeting for his family). They voted Labour because Labour was "for the working class". However, my brother and sister got good jobs and they opposed my dad. Heard many debates when I was a kid (hence my reluctance to get too involved in who should vote what). Then I got a good job and it became apparent that i would always be a Tory as they were the ones that gave people the incentive to "get up and go".
The education system at that time gave me the opportunity to lift myself out of the gloom. I don't know which party took that away but it was a very bad move.
I do know that I am very happy with education in France. My grandson goes to a private school and before anyone thinks that is snobbish, let me tell you that it works out cheaper (fuel costs) than going to the available public schools. Whether the Government subsidises private schools I don't know but, cost-wise, it bares no resemblance to the expensive private schools in the UK.
The education system at that time gave me the opportunity to lift myself out of the gloom. I don't know which party took that away but it was a very bad move.
I do know that I am very happy with education in France. My grandson goes to a private school and before anyone thinks that is snobbish, let me tell you that it works out cheaper (fuel costs) than going to the available public schools. Whether the Government subsidises private schools I don't know but, cost-wise, it bares no resemblance to the expensive private schools in the UK.
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Ron, similarly to yourself (though at a much later date I may add) I grew up in a council house in West of Scotland. My father passed leaving my mum to bring up 4 kids on her own. She coped admirably (though in true female fashion she did complain a lot) Holidays tended to be Boys Brigade camps. My mum voted Labour all the way until the recent election where she returned a Conservative vote. I echo the idea that Tory supports the worker. I do not have a university degree but have made simple life choices to better myself. I have voted Conservative since the age of 18 and I do not feel I conform to the picture some create of a Conservative in that I earn substantially less than the average wage, which I believe is £26500, as does my partner. My son is at college hopefully progressing to University next year (as he was a late developer) And I have to say I have a great life (in my opinion)
With regards to your grandson get him the best education available and dont feel the need to explain! I feel this is a curse of socialism whereby you are supposed to apologise for your success.
With regards to your grandson get him the best education available and dont feel the need to explain! I feel this is a curse of socialism whereby you are supposed to apologise for your success.