1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Off Topic The Environment

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,952
    Likes Received:
    4,851
    When you are trying to give up smoking the World is full of 4 different kinds of people.
    1. People who have never smoked, and consequently don't have the foggiest idea what you're going through.
    2. Social smokers (those lucky people who can smoke now and again) - who also don't understand.
    3. People who have given it up - and tell you smugly ''all you need is willpower'' - not telling you that it took them 16 attempts before it succeeded <doh>
    4. People who are also addicted (who don't really want you to succeed).

    Basically you can say that when trying to give up the World is full of ****ers.
     
    #621
  2. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    31,097
    Likes Received:
    8,226
    All you need is willpower..
    [emoji12] seriously!

    Sent from my G3121 using Tapatalk
     
    #622
  3. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    8,424
    Likes Received:
    3,870
    It is. I never regretted it, never missed it. Not at all. But, and I think you’ll agree yorkshire, it depends how you quit. There are several methods that are not ideal, I believe.
     
    #623
    yorkshirehornet likes this.
  4. To bring it away from smokers etc. and to something I know about I have something nice to say on the environment.
    A friend is trying to get a syllabus together to promote the Commonwealth push to improve ocean health. I had a brilliant chat with my 11 year old niece about it this afternoon and she had some great ideas and huge interest.
    None of these issues will be sorted overnight. We need everyone to buy in and bring about behavioural change. It is already happening with some huge companies committed to sourcing sustainably etc. We should celebrate the little victories sometimes and move on and look for more of them.
     
    #624
    andytoprankin likes this.
  5. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,952
    Likes Received:
    4,851
    I am also quite happy to get the subject away from smoking !
     
    #625
    Deleted....... likes this.
  6. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    I would be quite happy to get away from flooding !
     
    #626

  7. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    They were saying on the news this morning that the number of plastic bags found in British waters has dropped substantially since the charge for plastic bags was introduced a year ago. Obviuosly a good thing - but these areoffset by a rise in other items. Question - who throws plastic into the sea?
     
    #627
  8. hornethologist a.k.a. theo

    hornethologist a.k.a. theo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,098
    Likes Received:
    908
    I imagine some of it's washed down rivers and perhaps some left on beaches and picked up by high tides. In my youth, admittedly a long time ago, you were likely to get a thick ear if you dropped litter...not that there was so much to drop then!
     
    #628
  9. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    "A thick ear" - wonderful - wonder how many of our mini hornets have heard that expression?
     
    #629
  10. Mexican Hornet

    Mexican Hornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    11,860
    Likes Received:
    3,624
    ahahha I got a few, still do now and again.
     
    #630
    Deleted....... likes this.
  11. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    A spokeswoman for Iceland (the shop) was on this morning saying that they are aiming to have all own label products free of palm oil by the end of the year. Even though they use sustainable sources they want to reduce worldwide demand for the product. Instead of congratulating her the BBC presenter gave her stick as they will still sell a range of non Iceland products and these may contain palm oil. Can't win.
    What I did not know is that she said over 50% of products - not just food contain palm oil. Seems unlikley to me.
     
    #631
  12. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    14,238
    Just been to collect my annual supply of sacks for our waste and recycling from the town hall. Black bags for real waste and transparent ones for recycling material. The black ones give me a choice of 50 litre or 80 litre ones. I only have the smaller ones that we manage to half fill in a week. The transparent ones that are 100 litre last two weeks before we manage to fill one. The annual supply is 100 bags of each, so we are still working our way through them from last year. Despite having this more than generous allowance some people complain that they do not have enough. Seeing as the centre that sorts the recycled material has been enlarged to take even more materials, there is little they will not take now, the bins that we have to place the filled sacks in are the wrong way round. Twice as big for black sacks as transparent ones. There is also our recycling centre for us to take bulk items to that is being enlarged. The green waste is composted and I have often had some to use as mulch. There is a real effort being made to cut down on waste and landfill, although looking at the way the charge rises each year I am paying for it.
     
    #632
  13. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    11,570
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    One thing that annoys me here is that some people use more than one black bin - landfill - I don't know why the council do not refuse to collect the second.
     
    #633
  14. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    31,097
    Likes Received:
    8,226
    This popped up for me today.. Pretty chilling reading:
    *Last update: May 10th

    I realize there is something I have known for some time but have never said, and, since I have just spent another 4 hours of my life in climate change academia I have to get this out of my system.

    Please understand that many you reading this won't live to an old age... and likely will start scrolling after one or 2 more paragraphs... (edit...Ok I was wrong on this point. This is now my 2nd most shared post of all time..(edit)...make that my most shared)

    The IPCC report and Paris accord are incredibly overly optimistic and that commits the world to a target that means the death of hundreds of millions if not more.

    But it is worse than that.

    Even the commitments made by countries in the Paris accord don't get us to a 2-degree world.

    But it is worse than that.

    The 2 degree target is now unattainable (unless of course the entirety of civilization does a 180 today...) and is based on geoengineering the climate of the earth as well as the sequestering of every molecule of carbon we have produced since 1987, as well as every molecule we are producing today, as well as every molecule we produce tomorrow.... with magical technologies that don't exist, won't exist and, even if they did would likely cause as many if not more problems than they fix.

    But it is worse than that.

    The 2-degree target of the IPCC does not factor in the feedback loops such as the increased absorption of heat due to a drastic reduction in the albedo (reflectivity) effect caused by the 70% loss of Arctic ice,..- the release of methane from the thawing Arctic. (there is more energy stored in the arctic methane than there is in coal in the world). This is called the methane dragon. If the process of the release of the methane, currently frozen in the soil and ocean beds of the Arctic, which may have already begun, but if it spins out of control we are looking an 8-degree rise in temperature.

    But it is worse than that.

    The report which gives us 12 years to get our head's out of our arses underestimated the amount of heat stored in the world's oceans, as we discovered in mid-January by 40%... so no, we don't have 12 more years. And the contention that this destructive anthropogenic effect on climate is either new or natural is incorrect. A recent study of tree ring size the world over has found synchronized global droughts since about the year 1900. A phenomenon which did not exist in the 1000 previous years.

    But it is worse than that

    The conservative, American Meteorological Society indicates that our willful blindness and greed will have effects well beyond the climate. The world's oceans will see a 150% increase in acidity and over a full degree Celsius in warming. This well down the path to the Permian extinction where 96% of marine species disappeared forever.

    But it is worse than that.

    The IPCC report ignores the effects of humans messing up the Nitrogen cycle through agricultural fertilizers and more... Don't go down this rabbit hole if you want to sleep at night.

    But it is worse than that.

    Sea level rise will not be gradual. Even assuming that the billions of tons of water that is currently being dumped down to the ground level of Greenland isn't creating a lubricant which eventually will allow the ice to free-flow into the northern oceans; it is only the friction to the islands surface that is currently holding the ice back. Then consider the same process is happening in Antarctica but is also coupled with the disappearance of the ice shelves which act as buttresses holding the glaciers from free flowing into the southern ocean. then factor in thermal expansions; the simple fact that warmer water takes up more space and It becomes clear that we are not looking at maintaining the current 3.4mm/yr increase in sea level rise (which incidentally is terrifying when you multiply it out over decades and centuries.) We will be looking at major calving events that will result in much bigger yearly increases coupled with an exponential increase in glacial melting. We know that every increase of 100ppm of C02 increases sea level by about 100 feet. We have already baked in 130 feet of sea level rise. It is just a question of how long it is going to take to get there... and then keep on rising.

    But it is worse than that.

    Insects are disappearing at 6 times the speed of larger animals and at a rate of about 2.5% of their biomass every year. These are our pollinators. These are links in our food chain. These represent the basic functioning of every terrestrial ecosystem/

    But it is worse than that.

    58% of the biomass of vertebrate life on earth has been lost since 1970. That is basically in my lifetime! Additionally, a new study has shown that over 1 million species are now in danger of extinction due to human activity. Millions of years of evolution are being wiped out on a daily bases.

    But it is worse than that.

    The amount of Carbon we add to the atmosphere is equal to a yearly a human-caused forest fire 20% bigger than the continent of Africa. Yes, that is every single year!

    But it is worse than that.

    Drought in nearly every food producing place in the world is expected to intensify by mid-century and make them basically unusable by the end of the century... Then factor in the end of Phosphorus (China and Russia have already stopped exporting it knowing this) and the depletion of aquifers and you come to the conclusion that feeding the planet becomes impossible.

    But it is worse than that.

    We can no longer save the society that we live in and many of us are going to be dead long before our life expectancy would suggest.

    If your idea of hope is having some slightly modified Standard of living going forward and live to ripe old age... there is no hope. This civilization is over...

    ..but there is hope..

    There is a way for some to come through this and have an enjoyable life on the other side. Every day we delay can be measured in human lives. There will come a day of inaction when that number includes someone you love, yourself or myself.

    So we have 2 options.

    Wake the **** up. If we do we will only have to experience the end of our society as we know it aka...the inevitable economic collapse which is now unavoidable, but be able to save and rebuild something new on the other side. This would require a deep adaptation. Words like sustainability would need to be seen as toxic and our focus needs be on regeneration. Regeneration of soil, forests, grasslands, oceans etc.... This is all possible.

    Option 2 is the path we are on thinking that we can slowly adapt to change. This not only ensures we experience collapse but also condemns humanity to not just economic and social collapse but in a 4-6 or even an 8-degree world... extinction.

    I am sick of pipeline discussions. I am sick of any argument that is predicated on the defeatist assumption that we will continue to burn oil at an ever-increasing rate simply because it is what we have always done. Fact is if we do we are not just ****ed, we are dead. I am sick of people who don't understand how their food is produced, and its effect on the climate.(both carnivores who eat feed-lot meat and vegans who eat industrially-produced-mono-cropped-veggies as they are equally guilty here. The consumption of either is devastating). I am sick of the tons of shiny new clothes people are wearing without realizing 1 Kg of cotton takes over 10 thousand Liters of water and incredible amounts of energy to produce. I am sickened by the amount of that same clothing hits the landfill in near new condition. I am sick of the argument that our oil is less poisonous than someone else's. Firstly, no it isn't and secondly, It doesn't ****ing matter. I am sick of people that can't even handle the ridiculously-small, only-the-tip-of- the-iceberg-of-changes we need to accept; a carbon tax. I am sick of the fact that the political will seems only capable of focusing on the individual consumer through small measures like a carbon tax but no elected Party seems to have the fortitude to enact policies that take it to the small handful of companies that are responsible for an overwhelming amount of our current C02 production. I am sick of my own hypocrisy that allows me to still use fossil fuels for transportation. I am sick of those who use hypocrisy as an argument against action. I am sick of the Leadership of my country that argues we can have economic growth and survivable environment... we can't. I am sickened by the normalizing of the leadership of our Southern neighbour who as the most polluting nation in the world officially ignores even the tragedy that is the Paris accord and would submarine an international Arctic accord simple because it contains the words "Climate Change". I am sick that the next image I put up of my kids, cheese, pets or bread is going to gain immeasurably more attention than a post such as this which actually has meaning... I am sick about the fact that all the information I referenced here is easily discoverable in scientific journals through a simple google search but will be characterized by many as hyperbolic.

    I am confused as to who I am more upset with. Those who have fallen for the denier propaganda, those who choose to be willfully ignorant, those who understand this issue and throw their hands up in a fit of lazy despair or those who are as cognitive as I am to the urgency of this issue yet continue living day-to-day feeling self-satisfied with their recycling, electric car, voting record or some other equally inane lifestyle modification while waiting for society to hit the tipping point so they don't have to actually put their values into practice (which despite my recent life changes still more or less includes me). All that said...

    There is a path forward.

    But every day we delay the path forward includes fewer of us. Build community, build resilience, work for food security, think regeneration, plant food-producing trees, think perennial food production, turn your waste products into resources and if that isn't possible, don't consume it! Eat food that does not mine the soil and is locally produced, eat meat that is grass fed in a holistic or intensively rotated (ideally holistically grazed in a silvopasture ) that is used to provide nutrients to vegetation, get to know a farmer or become one yourself. Don't be a carnivore, herbivore or an omnivore... be a 'greenivore'. Park your car, do not vote for anyone who either ignores climate change or says we can have our cake and eat it too, quit your job if it is fossil fuel related (it is better than losing it... which you will), stop buying ****, stop buying expensive cars and overly large houses and then complain that local planet saving food costs more than Costco. Stop buying things that are designed to break and be disposed-of, let go of this society slowly and by your own volition (its better than being forced to do it quickly), Rip up your lawn and plant a garden with perennial veggies, fruit bushes, fruit trees, and nut trees. Learn to compost your own poop (it is easy and doesn't stink). Buy an apple with a blemish, Get a smaller house on a bigger lot and regenerate that land, Plant a guerrilla garden on a city road allowance. Return to the multi-generational house, Realize that growth has only been a thing in human civilization for 250 years and it is about to end and make preparations for this change. If you are perusing Wealth; Stop! Nothing on the planet is more destructive and brings upon more violence, pain, and climate destruction and, by willful ignorance, all at arms reach and without the wealth seeker's knowledge labour or effort. Teach these lessons and this reality to your children. Buy only the necessities, Don't buy new clothes-go to the thrift store. Don't use single-use plastic or if you do re-purpose it, Unplug your garburator (yes Facebook spell check, that is a word) and compost everything, Relearn old forgotten skills. Don't let yourself get away with the argument that the plane is going there anyway when you book a holiday. Understand that there is no such thing as the new normal because next year will be worse, Understand before you make the argument that we need to reduce human population ... meaning the population elsewhere... that it is not overpopulation in China or India that is causing the current problem... It is us and our "western" lifestyle, Understand that those that are currently arguing against refugees and climate change are both increasing the effects of climate change and causing millions of climate refugees... which will be arriving on Canada's doorstep because Canada, due to our size and Northern Latitude, will, on the whole, have some of the best climate refugees. Understand that every baby using disposable diapers is responsible for the equivalent of a cube van full and every woman using disposable feminine hygiene products is responsible for an equivalent amount of un-compostable incredibly high energy intensive waste that will be here for 500 years. Also, understand that there are alternatives to both.
    Understand that the densification of cities is condemning those in that density to a food-less future. Stop tolerating the middle ground on climate change. there is no middle ground on gravity, the earth is round, and we are on the verge of collapse.

    Compilation of Climate-related articles across my feed:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    At last check over 50000 shares. Thank you for reading. I appreciate those who when hitting the share button take a moment to add a personal comment (I read most of them) Forging that, cut and paste what to you is the most impactful line or paragraph.

    Thanks to Dr. Eric Rignot, Dr. Jennifer Francis, Dr. Jim Anderson, everyone at Berkely Earth those that put keep the FB page C02.earth and Environmental Advanced Sciences on FB up to date, the treasure trove of academic presentations on the Climate State Youtube Channel and so many other climate scientists who's work has inspired this piece. Thanks as well to the 16 yr old Gretta Thunburg who gave me the courage to take what was in my head and put it to paper and Rupert Read for the mnemonic. I encourage you to dig deep. Listen to talks where scientists are talking to scientists. They are less likely then to use the conservative filters they impose on themselves and you will get to the cutting edge.

    *on a personal note, since I post about my children, I don't accept friend requests from people I haven't met. That said as of today, I have figured out how to enable the "follow" button on my account. I have been blown away by all the fantastic and heartfelt messages and commitments to change I have received due to this post and look forward to reading them.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Reflection after 30 thousand shares

    When you have a post translated by several individuals into languages as unexpected as Hungarian and Italian, tuned into pamphlets by people at Gretta Thunberg ‘School Strikes’, adopted into 2 Ph.D. theses, inspired 2 poems and 2 original songs you can’t help but be impressed by the reach of social media.

    I spent a good amount of time reading many of the comments and shares that the post garnered and some things surprised me.

    • People are crying out for coverage of this issue. As so much of our media institution’s time and energy is wasted on the insanity of the man I have refused to name online for over 3 years now South of the border or Brexit so little is directed to our basic survival on this planet. People don’t share some anonymous dude from Canada’s 8 page ,4 thousand word, a science-heavy rant from a personal Facebook page with such alacrity if the information therein was well covered by the Fourth Estate.

    • It is time to stop candy coating these issues. I was originally criticized, not for being scientifically incorrect, but for turning too strongly to fear. The argument is that people do not get motivated by fear. My contention at the time, and now heavily buttressed, is that truth is not fear and when the truth is fearful, we need to face it head-on. I am now well positioned to tell you that the level of ignorance on what our scientists are telling us is beyond reason. One can only speculate as to why so little of what is know is making the front pages. Covering the effects such as the most recent devastation in Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Eastern Canada, Afghanistan...is not enough.

    • The Truth does inspire change. I challenge you to click on the share button and spend some time studying how people reacted to this post. For the most part, it is inspiring.

    • Vocal climate change deniers are few and far between. Despite the near 2 million engagements with this post I only received 3 messages from deniers and only a dozen or so managed to muster up the incredible amounts of courage required to but an ‘angry face’ emoji to the post.

    Information does lead people to profess to change how they live, vote and consume. I can’t count how many people sent me messages let me know how the post affected them to their core and professed they intention to make drastic changes. The messages were humbling and underscored how much more we as a family still have to do to live our own values.

    There were other reactions that were worthy of mention. The one I found the most depressing were those that fully embraced the science, say we somehow need to basically kill off a few billion people but are making little to no change in their lives. Obviously, the few billion that needed to be removed did not include themselves...

    Sent from my G3311 using Tapatalk
     
    #634
    colognehornet likes this.
  15. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,952
    Likes Received:
    4,851
    I was recently reading about how Man. City players and fans were criticized for a song which they were singing about Liverpool on their way back from Brighton - by plane ! Apparently our club also flies its players to all destinations which are further away than Birmingham. Can the environmental footprint of modern football be constantly ignored in this way ? Can there be any justification at all for domestic flights in a country the size of England ? Surely we must be able to by pass the various lobbies on this and finally tax kerosene in the same way we do other fuels - thus making it more more expensive to fly. In Germany it is ridiculous that we are banning plastic straws but are still flying from Cologne to Hamburg. A recent study showed that a passenger travelling from Zurich to Frankfurt by train leaves an individual carbon footprint which is 600 times less than doing the same journey by plane. I daresay that football will continue to be one area which continues impervious to all environmental concerns - it appears so if they consider it normal to have London derby matches in Baku, and have thousands flying there for the event.
     
    #635
    yorkshirehornet likes this.
  16. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    14,238
    There is a not very nice report on the BBC website about three chicken rearing farms in Lincolnshire. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-48745253

    It states that the dreadful conditions inside the huge sheds have been exposed by a charity. The question I have is who from government is supposed to monitor such things. At one time I guess it would have been the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, and as far as I know they had inspectors. Today we have DEFRA that I assumed took on the responsibilities for such things. Do they carry out inspections, or is it another outsourcing problem?
     
    #636
  17. It's Defra and the Animal and Plant Health Authority. This story is appalling but it would be interesting to know why the complainants never phoned APHA instead of continuing to carry out covert surveillance. The place would have been shut down on the spot under these circumstances I believe.
     
    #637
  18. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    14,238
    So does it rely on information being supplied to it, or does APHA have inspectors making regular inspections? Is APHA a part of government, or is it a quango? It seems that the company running these three farms has been given a month to improve conditions, but by the Red Tractor organization, which I thought was basically a trade body.
     
    #638
  19. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    14,238
    I have just had a look at the APHA website, and it appears to be more of a research and development setup, selling services over quite a large area, but no where that I can see it mentions animal welfare inspections. Is there a gap here between DEFRA and APHA?
     
    #639
  20. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    31,097
    Likes Received:
    8,226
    One of the reasons why i will never eat supermarket chicken....
     
    #640

Share This Page