Off Topic The "Discuss Anything Else" Thread

Yes mallafets, that's what we pay in. No-one disputes that. Similarly no-one disputes the rebates. Both facts are indisputable. My point was one can't quote one fact in an argument without quoting the other.

 

Agree, fine article by Michael Calvin. I have always hated this bowing and scraping to the corporate people by the horseracing industry, bloody ridiculous. Royal Ascot being the best example of this snivelling nonsense.

 

The simple answer is No.

Most of the Brexit financial arguments that I have seen have been based on theoretical savings but the possible benefits of trading elsewhere are just guesstimates, which is why I think that the Brexit camp need to broaden their argument to include the non-financial benefits. At the moment they keep banging on about the benefits that we are paying to migrant workers (especially child benefit being sent overseas) but the cold hard fact of the matter is that the amount of benefits claimed by EU migrants amounts to less than two per cent of the welfare budget. We could save more than that simply by cracking down on indigenous benefits cheats.

 

Go to the top of the class, Chan.

We definitely want back control of our country by our nationally elected government, who we can hold to account for their actions on these islands. Jean Claude Juncker and his friends on the European Commission are unelected and unaccountable – EU policy is decided by an undemocratic cabal.

We want back control of our borders so we can decide who comes and goes – irrespective of whether they are European or from The Commonwealth or elsewhere.

I saw former government minister Eric Pickles on the Sunday Politics today using weasel words to try and explain away how Cameron was failing to keep his Tory manifesto commitment that migrants would have to live and work here for four years before becoming eligible for benefits. It is just one part of his renegotiation that he is not going to deliver.

 

Simple mathematics: £50m a day would be about £18bn a year, so that is clearly the figure before taking into account our rebate. The problem that the “Out” team have is that whilst they can easily point out our savings, they cannot give anything but best-case-scenario estimates of how much better off we would be outside the Super State. Farage keeps bleating on about the World Trade Organisation (WTO) but a seat there means free trade not guaranteed economic benefit.

A successful Brexit would finish Brussels.

 

I think my greatest wish is that the nation votes on the real issues and not tabloid headlines, unfortunately we rely upon news outlets to inform and frame the argument in a coherent and unbiased manner, and I don't think we have much chance of that in reality.

Without getting too long winded I see the idea of union a good thing that has been accelerated too quickly and in an all or nothing gamble, which has led to many of the issues that are being argued in most of the EU countries. Do not imagine just because we are centre stage that there is not just as strong resentment in other countries, we for them are the guinea pig, what can we get from re-negotiation? how do we fare outside? many will act once we have tested this water.

My deep wish is that immigration does not dictate peoples voting, it is an issue and it is a problem but not the only or biggest issue. Throughout recent history our nation is littered with cyclical fear mongering regarding immigration, I can remember the sad response to the influx of West Indian, Indian and Pakistani immigration in the 70's (although I was only a lad). In my view we have a range of immigration and the amount of system exploiting immigration is likely miniscule in relation to the headlines it generates.

We have immigration from EU countries by people that work and pay tax into our economy.
We also have immigration from the EU by people who do not work but claim UK benefits or work in low paid jobs that we top up with benefits.
We have immigration from non EU countries which is completely irrelevant to the vote as we are in control of the laws applying to these applicants.

We really need hard figures for the first two - how much tax is generated by the first group and how much do the second group cost us. My suspicion is that the amounts would not be a figure that most would wish to use as the basis for the decision on how to vote.

We are pretty insulated from the worst of the EU at present as we are not part of the euro and that is the best bit of good fortune we have, for that currency has crippled Greece, Spain and the others of late and is the likely weight that will drag on many nations for many years, as France is finding. One big thing to note is that whether we stay in or get out, we are still linked to Europe, their problems will always be ours and all problems need working together.

 

I think we'd be cutting our own throats if we tried to go it alone. Countries are like people; they don't thrive in isolation. For all it's many flaws, the EU has served us pretty well for most of the last 40 years.Like much of the world since 2008, the EU is now in crises, but it's madness to assume the UK can guarantee immunity from international problems by cutting itself off from the world.

 

The problem is bluesky immigration is probably the biggest factor, i see the UK changing too rapidly due to it and yet in the North East we have not been hit as hard as the south from it, so I would hate to see the changes down there.
The newspapers are awful but so are the politicians with their lies and poor reporting. I seen a BBC interview with Lord Kinnock yesterday and he made points on foreigners claiming benefits, yet his claims were totally wrong, he was either poorly briefed by his researcher or just plain lying.

 

I am not sure it is Mallafets, not financially anyhow, which is why I think the figures need opening up. I am not sure the sums claimed through the benefits system would prove we get a bad deal when placed beside the amounts of extra growth in the economy due to woking immigrants. I am not sure of DC's rush for a vote as I would actually watch what happens with this current Middle Eastern immigration crisis for a bit yet as if the EU gets weakened further we could win on two counts as they will be happier to give more to keep us in and other countries will come under pressure from their own populations to curb immigration, meaning we may find agreement to change easier to come by.

 

That's a good point Blue. If it is doomed, why be seen as the first to abandon a sinking ship and have all of Europe resenting us? Playing the waiting game until another country considers quitting would put us in a very strong position

 

You sure he's totally wrong? Where are you getting your own information from?

I live in London, which has been a centre for immigration for centuries. What I see with my own eyes is people coming here to work. All those Eastern Europeans and Africans are standing at bus stops at 5.00am, not queueing at dole offices. That doesn't mean uncontrolled immigration is neccessarily dedirable; but the benefits thing is, I believe, a myth.

 

I wouldn't think there is going to a lemming type end to this stuff, with the UK jumping and others following, at least not in the near future. With the world as flat as it is at the moment, not too many countries are going to play fast and loose with the unknown.

 

If the world is flat, surely there'll be nothing for the Lemmings to jump off?

More worryingly, we have a virulant right wing press in this country that believes the earth is flat. The Sun and The Mail are already telling their readers to close their eyes and jump.

 

I doubt the dole offices open until later. They could be getting on a bus to get to the front of the queue.

Only joking

 

His exact words on benefits were false, a total utter lie.
"For instance, people don't generally know that there are no out of work benefits claimable as of right, by immigrants generally, including EU immigrants,"
JSA must not exist then Lord Kinnock? Unless your going to use the word "generally" as a clever get around a false statement clause.

 

Have you tried recently to claim benefits? I'm sure you are regurgitating uninformed claptrap.. ,..do tell the procedures involved - since I'm out of work. ....

 

Yes i know the benefits system very well as i am involved in a benefits project in regards to dwp welfare benefits. Tax credits are about the only benefits i have no knowledege of as i have no dealing with inland revenue.
You are out of work, you can claim possibly JSA, ESA, PIP, HB, CTB or you may fall under a UC area on the roll out of that. Obviously you may not meet the criteria as you may of got a good redundancy payment or have a lot of capital or other source of income.

 

If you are out of work and are having probs with your benefits PM me and i will try help you out.

 

Another major gangland murder this evening after Friday's events,Dublin on lock down-Open gangland warfare and the police can't stop it,sad times

 

Big time sport is business. People can do the mass walkout at the 77th minute as often as they want, but the bottom line will remain the same, cash in the coffers. Most fans don't give a flying **** about the corporate boxes, they can't afford to stick their heads in the door, let alone take a seat. They might whinge about the chances of paying 40-50 pounds in the near future for a cheap seat, but if they decide in the end to stay away, others will fill the void. Owners know this. Most clubs in the Premier League are filled with elite athletes. Any one of us would kill to be as skillful, so what's the big deal about paying maybe 50 quid to see tens of millions, or hundreds of millions of pounds worth of football talent in each team, on show every week? If some poxy band like the Bay City Rollers got back together and hit the local venues, it would probably cost as much to see them.