The Derby - Postrace

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"she was beaten further in the Oaks than she was the Arc, don't you think that telss you everything about the form of the race"

Seriously? A guy who has been gambling on racing for a month wouldnt come out with a statement as crazy as that.

Just disregard the fact that a mare who won most of her Group 1s at 4, 5 and 6 might just have improved from her 3yo career? 9 Group 1s, just consistent? Im sure every trainer in the world would love to have just one mare in their lifetime who was that consistent.

Not like your Zenyattas and Zarkavas who are wrapped in cotton wool and are only asked to run big a couple of times in their lives.

You cant be much a true racing fan if you cant appreciate the greatness of Triptych or Dancing Brave, especially considering how hard it is to find even one top class horse that Shergar beat, when the great names that Dancing Brave beat just roll off the tongue.

Its also funny, I dont ever remeber Shergar winning Guineas? Usually these top top class horses like Dancing Brave, Nijinsky and Sea The Stars have the speed to win Group 1 mile races and they still stay extremely well.

Considering the competetion and the fact that he was a bit of a one trick pony, its hard to have Shergar anywhere near the top 20 horses in European history. His easy win of one of the weakest Derbys of all time and his kidnapping maybe cloud some peoples memorys. Decent animal but he could never be mentioned with the true greats.
 
I've never really understood why Shergar got all the accolades. Granted he was a very impressive Derby winner but he beat trees, the Irish Derby told us nothing we didn't already know. He didn't exactly win the greatest of King George's and he got beat in the Leger.

I rate Peintre Celebre as one of the most impressive Arc winners of the past 30 years where he made top-class horses like Pilsudski and Swain look very ordinary. Andre Fabre is on record as saying that Pour Moi has an even better turn of acceleration than Peintre Celebre and he'll be getting weight from the likes of So You Think and Workforce in the Arc.
 
I watched Peintre Celebre Prix du Jockey club and his Arc victory yesterday.Id forgotten what a truly amazing horse he was.Ive never seen acceleration like that from a horse before.

If Pour Moi has a better turn of foot than PC and is able to sustain it.The winner of the ARC is a no brainer, as the 2 aforementioned horses will not live with him.
 
I might even pop across to see my first Arc this year. Better late than never. Chances are though, they will drop out one by one.
 
Can anyone remember, or find out, who the ante post favourite was for Shergar's Derby, what other horses were made favourite for that Derby and who were the top rated 2 year olds from the year before. I have vivid recollections of not fancying Shergar for the Derby until nearer the day at which point I confidently predicted that Shergar would win by the biggest margin ever in a Derby. I can still visualise me shouting it up the stairs to my girl friend (long since wife). But I'm damned if I can recall who I did fancy before coming to that conclusion and it bugs me.
 
Top-rated Thoroughbreds on Flat CoursesSteven A. Roman, Ph.D., a professor at Columbia University created the Chef-de-Race website, a resource that contains significant information on speed ratings for Thoroughbred racehorses. The figures below are official All-Time Highweights for horses who raced in Australasia, Dubai, Europe, Hong Kong, Japan, and Scandinavia as supplied by Mr. Neil O'Connor of Timeform. Until very recently (generally after 2000), notable post-war horses who raced in America were never given Timeform ratings, so they can not be compared directly to their European counterparts. The most notable of these would be Secretariat.
Horse Born Rating
Sea Bird 1962 145
Brigadier Gerard 1968 144
Tudor Minstrel 1944 144
Frankel 2008 142
Abernant 1946 142
Ribot 1952 142
Mill Reef 1968 141
Dancing Brave 1983 140
Dubai Millennium 1996 140
Harbinger 2006 140
Sea The Stars 2006 140
Shergar 1978 140
Vaguely Noble 1965 140
Generous 1988 139
Pappa Fourway 1952 139
Reference Point 1984 139
Alleged 1974 138
Alycidon 1945 138
Celtic Swing 1992 138
Cigar 1990 138
Daylami 1994 138
Exbury 1959 138
Nijinsky 1967 138
Star of India 1953 138
Tulloch 1954 138
Easy Goer 1986 137
Sunday Silence 1986 137
Apalachee 1971 137
Dayjur 1987 137
Ghostzapper 2000 137
Grundy 1972 137
Kingston Town 1976 137
Mark of Esteem 1993 137
Molvedo 1958 137
Montjeu 1996 137
Moorestyle 1977 137
Never Say Die 1951 137
Peintre Celebre 1994 137
Pinza 1950 137
Princely Gift 1951 137
Ragusa 1960 137
Rheingold 1969 137
Reliance 1962 137
Right Boy 1954 137
Troy 1976 137
Zilzal 1986 137
Alcide 1955 136
Allez France 1970 136
Ballymoss 1954 136
Bering 1983 136
Black Tarquin 1945 136
Bustino 1971 136
Crepello 1954 136
El Condor Pasa 1995 136
El Gran Senor 1981 136
Floribunda 1958 136
Gentlemen 1992 136
Habibti 1980 136
Hafiz 1952 136
Hawk Wing 1999 136
Helissio 1993 136
Herbager 1956 136
My Babu 1945 136
Manikato 1975 136
Northjet 1977 136
Old Vic 1986 136
Relko 1960 136
Slip Anchor 1982 136
Suave Dancer 1988 136
Sakhee 1997 136
Tantieme 1947 136
Texana 1955 136
Thatch 1970 136
Warning 1985 136
All Along 1979 135
Arazi 1989 135
Arbar 1944 135
Arctic Prince 1948 135
Chanteur 1942 135
Charlottesville 1957 135
Coronation 1946 135
Dahlia 1970 135
Intikhab 1994 135
Known Fact 1977 135
Kris 1976 135
La Tendresse 1959 135
Le Moss 1975 135
Match II 1958 135
Nashwan 1986 135
Never So Bold 1980 135
Pebbles 1981 135
Petingo 1965 135
Petoski 1982 135
Right Royal 1958 135
Royal Anthem 1995 135
Sagace 1980 135
Sassafras 1967 135
Shadeed 1982 135
Shahrastani 1983 135
Shareef Dancer 1980 135
Sicambre 1948 135
Sir Ivor 1965 135
Souverain 1943 135
St Jovite 1989 135
Supreme Court 1948 135
Teenoso 1980 135
Tenerani 1944 135
The Bug 1943 135
The Minstrel 1974 135
Trempolino 1984 135
Youth 1973 135
 
I thought I had posted this but obviously I got distracted and forgot to post.
Extract from Wikipedia:
Shergar's Racing career:

"Bred by his owner Prince Karim Aga Khan IV in County Kildare, Ireland close to the stud from which he was stolen, Shergar began training with Michael Stoute at Newmarket. His debut race in 1981 was the Guardian Classic Trial at Sandown Park. Racing correspondent Richard Baerlein, after watching the colt win by 10 lengths famously advised race-goers that "at 8-1, Shergar for the Derby, now is the time to bet like men."
After winning the Chester Vase by 12 lengths, Shergar started odds-on favourite at Epsom, ridden by 19-year-old jockey Walter Swinburn, also entering his first Derby. Swinburn recalled that early in the race Shergar "found his own pace and lobbed along as the leaders went off at a million miles an hour, with me just putting my hands down on his withers and letting him travel at his own speed". Shergar pulled to the front early and went further clear, so far that John Matthias on the runner-up Glint Of Gold thought he had won: "I told myself I'd achieved my life's ambition. Only then did I discover there was another horse on the horizon."
Shergar's next race was the Irish Derby, ridden by Lester Piggott. The apparent ease with which Shergar passed the rest of the runners, winning by 4 lengths, caused commentator Peter O'Sullevan to exclaim: "He's only in an exercise canter!" The horse became a national hero in Ireland."

It's very interesting that Shergar did not race as a 2yo. I'm sure that race horses are better off if they don't race as 2yos, or maybe just a gentle intro to the race course late in the season when it is absolutely certain that the plates in their knee joints have properly fused. So many champion 2yos just fail to live up to their promise as a 3yo.
 
I find it amazing that Frankel- who has beaten relatively weak opposition- has been given a rating of 142 at this stage of his career.
No disrespect to him but I don't consider Roderick O'Connor and Dubawi Gold- two of his higher profile opponents- as worthy of a mention against any of the horses in that list- or many out of it!
It seems to me that Timeform will send a horse "into eternity" based on either one outstanding performance (eg. Harbinger, Hawkwing) or impressive performances against mediocre opposition.
I also find it incredible that horses like Royal Palace and Reform don't even get into the list!
Royal Palace was one of the better Derby winners- and a dual Classic winner. He campaigned on as a four year old and apart from his first run as a 2y.o. I think he only lost one race- when he was beaten by Champion miler, Reform, in the Champion Stakes.
Likewise Reform himself was a model of class and consistency. Though never entered in the Classics, he swept all before him in Royal Palace' s year (1967).
The opposition that these two horses respectivel beat eg. Sir Ivor and Taj Dewan were different class to Frankel's opponents.
In my opinion, Frankel needs to achieve quite a bit more yet to be rated the fourth best horse in history.
 
I have to admit I was amazed at Frankel's rating. But I do feel Harbinger deserves his rating. He matured as a 4yo and had already shown his class when sauntering to an easy victory at Ascot prior to the KG. He was a rapidly improving horse and not only did he beat the course record at Ascot, (which isn't the b all and end all) he did it with such contemptuous ease and I feel we were robbed of a star when he got injured. I would definitely have gone to my first ever Arc to cheer him to a fascile victory. I was really looking forward to him proving beyond all doubt to all that he was a super horse. Very sad, because it leaves doubts in the minds of those who felt the KG was a one off. Unfortunately, when a horse doesn't get the chance to convince all doubters, there is naturally an element of speculation about what might have been and I think it simply comes down to a matter of opinion/belief by the individual and never will there be agreement.
 
Whilst I agree with you , Ron, that his King George performance was tremendous and no doubt showed great improvement, you have to balance that against what he beat- and the fact that it was one race only.
Compare him with another unbeaten 4 year old, Busted in 1967.
He won The Coronation Stakes, King George, Eclipse Stakes, and Prix Foy- and yet he doesn't get in the list- although I think just out of it on 134.
It was sad that Harbinger- like Busted- was deprived by injury from winning The Arc.
Yet I can't agree with his rating compared with Busted, and personally, I think Timeform have lost the plot in recent times.
 
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