It's not just in offices that the problem exists. Everybody has the right to be offended I believe. However, I don't agree that causing offence is in itself grounds for disciplinary or legal action. If the offence is to be actionable then I believe it is for the person claiming to have been offended to prove the level and nature of the alleged damage.
I think that's basically not the case in law. I'm sorry but its not and it makes for nice cosy closed shops. For instance women being able to complain. By all means yes a claim of harassment can ruin a man's career but the reality is if you don't make it ok to complain and then you take things seriously but still have innocent until proven guilty then its a bad thing. That means you support the victim but don't victimise the accused. you discipline the perosn found guilty. Thus far Macay and moody have been called racists, bung takers and homophobes in the press. This is fundamentally wrong and both men have lost opportunities and in fact one lost his job... Now is tan a victim.. nope... he's not he feel that all his clubs ills are down to these two in a variety of ways and he is taking every available chance to attack the two publically. Moody took a case against the guy and it was dropped then he apologised too. why? what does tan have on him?
No that isn't how I define the difference. I should clarify that when I said I've said worse I didn't mean like that. I've never said anything blatantly racist for the sake of being racist. Nothing malicious nor personal. But I've passed on and told jokes that I've heard which are probably more clear about those stereotypes. And I've been called out on it. And I've been judged. And I've offended people. And my reputation has suffered with close friends if I have crossed the line. Everyone in the world has. Mackay (and to be fair most were Moody) made those comments maliciously. Some of those aren't jokes, they're straight up angry racist or homophobic attacks. I've made jokes about gay people that have in their humour been more offensive than just the words "gay snake". But they haven't been malicious or even aimed at anyone. So no - I highlighted similarities and differences between myself and him to prove my point about there being nothing wrong with a working class traditional attitude. Most lads in the pub make jokes about the same topics. But when you do it maliciously, in relation to people you work with then that is a big big difference. Mackay and Moody didn't just share a bit of banter between themselves. They shared malicious and personal attacks on their coworkers and employers, and people that relied on them. They didn't do it for fun they did it because they genuinely wanted to dislike these people. That is an important distinction. As for his work phone issue that is the only reason its being brought up. He did it on company property in relation to his job. Had he actually done it personally we would never know. But since he did, Tan is required to submit that. Allegedly the LMA have had these texts for MONTHS. So no he isn't being a vindictive twat he was a regular twat months ago.
thanks for the post. Your point about keeping this to yourself when it's in relation or personal towards others is spot on. It wasn't just banter, it was personal and it was malicious. That sort of thing can't be said on any public forum, and if you do it on a work phone which you eventually use to slag off your employer you're just asking for it. No PC brigade involved. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. Don't expect a leaving post from me soon either, I love it here. You (and everyone else) are a credit to our board as well, thanks to you it's a great place for discussion of not just football but things like this as well. #rightbackatyou
Sorry danilo but I just do not believe you when you say "I've never said anything blatantly racist for the sake of being racist. Nothing malicious nor personal." At the hight of the Balkan conflict, with hate and fear running riot then lots of things were thought said and done about 'the other side' that was very personal and malicious. As MITO has been at pains to point out, none of these communications and their contents would have come into the public domain if it had not been for Vincent Tan. So perhaps we should stop and ask ourselves why he released when and how he did. It certainly was not as part of an internal Cardiff City HR investigation. It was not a matter past on to the police for criminal investigation. No, it was part of Tan's armoury in his war with both of the individuals concerned and released in a way as to cause as much damage as possible. Any moral high ground about the contents has been well and truly sullied by both the process and intention. So, I'll ask you the same question that I put to your friend carl. What can you truly prove from the 'evidence' regarding the actions and decisions of either men from them? carl has refused to defend his position and therefore ,in his absence, I will ask you to undertake the task.
Tan is a malicious bastard. He has obviously had it in for Mackay from the moment he took over the club. This is nothing but a the doing of a petty minded malicious dick. I cannot believe that all those on here spouting out indignation at mackays comments ( which were private but Tan has made public) have never, in some point in there lives, not made some racist or sexist remark. Mackay was treat disgracefully by Tan and if he called him a 'chink' I'm only amazed it was only on 3 occassions
i'd have to challenge everyone saying never.... to not defend macay as obviously some of the direct quote texts are quite obviously the juicy ones to be published and are bad. my challenge is say you NEVER heard, laughed at or told a joke involving any of the following; gay men etc; Jewish people being tight.. as in the raabi, catholic priest and vicar type... any sory of paddy joke for example and so for and so on... This is all danilo IMO said in some form which is honest... KPH seems to say those having a go are just pathetic.. i agree Nobody should go defending macay but he is innocent of main charge until proven guilty and the MAIN charge is actually taking bungs and the rest of this is all Tan making things public to ruin the guy.
"my challenge is say you NEVER heard, laughed at or told a joke involving any of the following; gay men etc; Jewish people being tight.. as in the raabi, catholic priest and vicar type... any sory of paddy joke for example and so for and so on... This is all danilo IMO said in some form which is honest... KPH seems to say those having a go are just pathetic.. i agree" This is exactly my point. We do these things every day without realising that we are being racist/ sexist. It's just life and I get fed up with the politically correct morons who say otherwise. It's what's wrong with this country, where we are afraid to tell it like it is because of the fear of being abused/persecuted and in this case, losing the chance of earning a living by the minority who shout the loudest.
I wasn't in the war myself and I don't have any personal hatred for anyone in the Balkans so not sure what your point is. I wasn't racist against my own race and I never wanted to discuss politics given that they were an absolute joke. So unless you were there you don't know what I've said about the war. If I said anything it would have been backed up with facts and had justification based on truths. Tan is legally required to hand these over. Allegedly the LMA have had the texts for months. The media are the ones releasing it at choice moments. Someone on this forum said that the media would wait for him to apologise for a few texts then hit him with new allegations. Well it has happened that way and that's not up to Vincent Tan. It also most certainly was part of a Cardiff internal HR investigation which lead to justification for firing Mackay in the first place. What you can prove is that Mackay and Moody referred to their coworkers and subordinates as fkn chinkys, associates as gay snakes and made remarks about female agents. Maybe they aren't racist. Maybe it wasn't them. It's a matter for someone else to decide. Am I asking for them to be hung? No. I don't really care. But you asked a series of questions that I answered.
Danilo, you are either a saint - which I do not believe or you are being very very liberal with your recollections of the things that you have said, done and thought. I used the Balkans conflict as an illustration. Had you been Irish I could equally as easily substituted The Troubles. Would I think any less of you if you had made comments? My answer would be probably not. Would I have disrespected any of the thoughts that you have posted? Again probably not. As others have said on both 'sides' of this discussion there is a lot of respect for what you have to say. There is no legal requirement for Tan to make any of the contents public. As far as Cardiff City are concerned then this should have remained a totally confidential matter. The LMA have no legal authority to demand any evidence from either side in this affair. As for your interpretation of Tan and his conduct in this matter - who the hell do you think is feeding the media? Then ask yourself why. What I and a few others are asking is for others to take a little time and think about the context of the whole issue before acting as judge and jury on a man's character without being in possession of the full facts.
Actually the history here is important. Moody's house was search and devices seized. Not offices house.... That means a search warrant surely so this was about a sacking, bungs and such. Moody sued tan then dropped it and apologised Then Macay looks to be joining moody at palace and suddenly.... Out comes the evidence public ally Sorry but something smells to me and I don't think the texts are even the main story
Danilo, Frank, Jackal, You're either part of the brainwashed or the brainwashers. From his avatar, I'm sure Frank is the former. This is clearly a case of the PC brigade raising their scythe to individual liberties. Tantamount to persecution. Did he commit a public hate crime? No. Did Mackay say "I seek to ... jews/homos/asians"? No. Did he even say I disrespect all of them based on their race? No. A text typed out of frustration does not amount to life philosophy. All it implies is "I don't like the m*rf*ker and I can't stand his f*king ____ face". At that point, one is just being an angry "poet" with no attachment to conscious actionable intentions. This person is not a racist. Simply a hot-blooded human being who has fled for a moment from his own frontal cortex under great stress. Btw - there is nothing wrong at any level to nudge your mate that he wants to dive into a gal's falsies. At any level.
I agree we probably do not have the full story here. Let's stick with what we know rather dwell too much in speculation. 1. Mackay was sacked by Cardiff City together with moody. Reason given was irregularities with transfers. Paying too much for players was one accusation. 2. Mackay (together with moody) sued Cardiff City (or their owners) for nearly £10 million pounds for unfair dismissal 3. Mackay dropped the claims against the club and its owners. And apologised unreservedly to the owners and the club. Reason unclear at the time. But speculation now is that it had something to do with those texts. Tan was asked by the press why the claim was dropped and what was Mackay apologising for: he said he couldn't tell for legal reasons. 4. Mackay on the point of being offered a 3 year contract, joining moody at crystal palace. 5. Crystal palace contacted by Cardiff City and informed about the texts. According Cardiff their lawyers told them they had to because crystal palace was recruiting Mackay and according to FA rules, any misdemeanours have to get reported by ex employers to the prospective new employers. 6. Information released by the press: by daily mail. Texts are deemed sexist, racist, homophobic, antisemitic. 7. Mackay apologises unreservedly and admits to mistake, to being human. Not once does he mention any wrongdoing or even hint of one by the owners or the club. These are facts. Of course there could be more to the stories. Mackay has had to apologise unreservedly on at least 2 occasions and the owners none. I may be missing something here but why with these facts do some people here want others to side with Mackay and against the owners (of whom we know very little?) Why are the owners viewed as the bad guys? What have they done wrong?
Ok livtor Since you've clearly pitched your flag on one side, let me put these to you: 1. Moody told Mackay about a player who complained about his manager being racist. He texted him: " well it is good thing he has not met you then!" 2. A black player has complained of being neglected by and racially abused by Mackay. He had complained at the time. Nobody paid a lot if attention but no surprise the press has resurrected the story. I will just let you to reflect on those. Ps: Mackay himself has admitted he did wrong and had apologised and said he definitely needed to have equality and diversity training thereby admitting that his behaviour could be improved, why can't some people accept this from the man himself??
The first is nothing, words between mates, fluff. Nothing to justify real punishment. The second, if true, involves words said and actions taken against a subject - REAL GROUNDS for investigation.
Agreed. My point was that I go with the facts. The real fact is that Mackay has apologised unreservedly and said he dud wrong. He said not me that he NEEDED educating thereby implying that his behaviour was not good enough. I will let others on this board to make their own judgement. I'm not implying that I am in any way more perfect or has never done anything wrong. Anyway, time for bed. It was nice chatting with you. Goodnight.
Interesting that you totally ignore the campaign that Tan began against both Macay and Moody whilst they were both employees of the club. Further any HR action taken by Cardiff should have been kept confidential. Whilst the outcome of any disciplinary procedure may have to be notified to future clubs (neither you nor I know if that is true) I strongly doubt that there is any requirement to divulge the evidence itself.. So who released the contents of these texts to the Daily Mail and why would they do so. Many of us believe from his earlier comments and actions that the road leads all the way back to Tan. No we don't have proof of that but there are huge questions to be answered by Tan.
Oh dear. I'm not sure what I was accused of there. It looked like English, it wasn't but sure..... What I was saying....fairly non aggressively...you work in the environment you agree to. I'm not PC. If I said the things I say in private in work I'd be unemployed. I can and have said my works rules are silly.....but I chose to work there, I signed the silly contract so ....... Dave has earned his right to say what he likes because he doesn't have to bow down for a wage anymore...good stuff. Liv... I Don't know what he does so can not understand or criticise.
carl your summation is a good one and I certianly don't want to defend macay. I just think the texts are the tip of an iceberg and there's a bigger story here.
