The Changing Game

[Spurf]

Having just watched two games in quick succession where Spurs have been on the wrong end of the result but also IMO some very dodgy play from the opposing side I am increasingly concerned that the game seems to have moved on in ways that I fail to understand.

I will stick to general points here rather than individual episodes as I think we will quickly get bogged down in the detail and maybe miss the overall point I am trying to explore. Having said that I have to mention the Lo Celso incident at Stamford Bridge because so many are convinced of his guilt, including it appears most Spurs fans, where only 3 of us at the last count, think there is another explanation. The detail of our disagreement with most football watchers is discussed on another thread so let's not continue it here but for me this is yet another incident in a long line where I find myself out of step with football.

Watching and playing football for 60 years should enable me to have a decent understanding of the game but increasingly I see incidents and hear commentary that is at odds with what I thought was the game of football. I am talking about play that I consider cheating that is often not even mentioned and sometimes justified as 'taking one for the team'.

Body checking it appears is often penalsied but not when it's in the penalty are? Bringing a player down with a deliberate trip is punished but not all the time? These tactics seem to be part of Guardiola's game plans and Leipzig showed similar methods when they played Spurs recently. Football is a contact sport and in the recent past we were in danger of losing that important aspect of the game as referees refused to allow it. Now it appears the spectacle is king and the fans must be allowed the flowing game so advantage is played more and more and foul play is allowed to go unpunished.

These judgments are difficult especially in real time, hence the clamour to bring in VAR but that just adds a new dimension 'slow motion' and that can completely distort reality which does not happen in slow motion.

One thing is for sure, the game has always changed and continues to change I am just not sure I either like or even understand where it's heading to.

 

[BobbyD]

Having just watched two games in quick succession where Spurs have been on the wrong end of the result but also IMO some very dodgy play from the opposing side I am increasingly concerned that the game seems to have moved on in ways that I fail to understand.

I will stick to general points here rather than individual episodes as I think we will quickly get bogged down in the detail and maybe miss the overall point I am trying to explore. Having said that I have to mention the Lo Celso incident at Stamford Bridge because so many are convinced of his guilt, including it appears most Spurs fans, where only 3 of us at the last count, think there is another explanation. The detail of our disagreement with most football watchers is discussed on another thread so let's not continue it here but for me this is yet another incident in a long line where I find myself out of step with football.

Watching and playing football for 60 years should enable me to have a decent understanding of the game but increasingly I see incidents and hear commentary that is at odds with what I thought was the game of football. I am talking about play that I consider cheating that is often not even mentioned and sometimes justified as 'taking one for the team'.

Body checking it appears is often penalsied but not when it's in the penalty are? Bringing a player down with a deliberate trip is punished but not all the time? These tactics seem to be part of Guardiola's game plans and Leipzig showed similar methods when they played Spurs recently. Football is a contact sport and in the recent past we were in danger of losing that important aspect of the game as referees refused to allow it. Now it appears the spectacle is king and the fans must be allowed the flowing game so advantage is played more and more and foul play is allowed to go unpunished.

These judgments are difficult especially in real time, hence the clamour to bring in VAR but that just adds a new dimension 'slow motion' and that can completely distort reality which does not happen in slow motion.

One thing is for sure, the game has always changed and continues to change I am just not sure I either like or even understand where it's heading to.

Hi Spurf, if this is your message that you are done with the game then i will happily step into your role as tottenham board forum moderator.

With regards to Lo celso, it all happened very quickly and whereas i don't think there is any malice, it was an action that endangered another player (purely because he was slower in this case). That sort of stuff is what gets you red cards whether it was an accident or not (i actually think the flying kick that caught kovacic was worse even though that was a 50/50).

The body checking and grappling of players has been part of the dark arts thats been going on for yonks. I believe the worse for these are from the likes of the allardyces, the warnocks, the pulises and the dyches. saying that, i haven't seen leipzig play too much but the pep sides are prime suspects for these to stop any counter attack.

 

[Dier Hard]

I’m a fan of the dark arts to be honest. It’s annoying when used against you but it’s generally an effective tactic, even if frowned upon by the majority.

In Poch’s early years we actually used it a bit ourselves. Dele was a very sly wind up merchant, Dier would have more of an upfront enforcer role, Vertonghen was good at knowing when to grab an opponent’s shirt out of view of the officials and let’s not forget that even to this day Lamela is a top level ****house (when he ain’t injured!).

Sergio Ramos being one of my favourite players probably tells you all you need to know .

 

[Blue and White]

Not for the first time recently, I am struggling to come to terms with my ''addiction'' to football.
If there was a way to get out I would. There is a certain amount of FOMO.
But, after this weekend I am at a low. The clamour against Gio just sickens me. After winning the ball and trying to get full control, Azpi came sliding in from the side totally out of control and everyone is shouting that he did nothing wrong.
Maguire gets away for doing exactly the same as Son- and watching the Son incident again is so infuriating. Rudiger punches him and then looks up to see if his actions have 'worked'.
Bournemouth get done over twice for 'shoulder' ball.
Can't remember who it was, but there was a rugby tackle on a player this weekend to prevent a one on one with a goalie-taking one for the team-this should in my view be a straight red. Earlier in the season Guendouzi did the same. Sorry DH but this is not in the spirit of any other game. In cricket you cannot block the run of the batsmen which is an equivalent. In basketball there is a more serious punishment for an intentional foul. In rugby it is the sin bin. Only in football , one gets away with the 'dark acts'. A yellow card is not punishment as that is commonplace.
Different rules for different teams in different countries ( Barca can sign Braithwaite )
Football is corrupt, is run by incompetent people, is commented on by bias individuals and written about by so called journalists who have no idea what they are talking about-often never having played the game. Plus there is always an agenda. And VAR has made it all worse.

 

[Dier Hard]

Not for the first time recently, I am struggling to come to terms with my ''addiction'' to football.
If there was a way to get out I would. There is a certain amount of FOMO.
But, after this weekend I am at a low. The clamour against Gio just sickens me. After winning the ball and trying to get full control, Azpi came sliding in from the side totally out of control and everyone is shouting that he did nothing wrong.
Maguire gets away for doing exactly the same as Son- and watching the Son incident again is so infuriating. Rudiger punches him and then looks up to see if his actions have 'worked'.
Bournemouth get done over twice for 'shoulder' ball.
Can't remember who it was, but there was a rugby tackle on a player this weekend to prevent a one on one with a goalie-taking one for the team-this should in my view be a straight red. Earlier in the season Guendouzi did the same. Sorry DH but this is not in the spirit of any other game. In cricket you cannot block the run of the batsmen which is an equivalent. In basketball there is a more serious punishment for an intentional foul. In rugby it is the sin bin. Only in football , one gets away with the 'dark acts'. A yellow card is not punishment as that is commonplace.
Different rules for different teams in different countries ( Barca can sign Braithwaite )
Football is corrupt, is run by incompetent people, is commented on by bias individuals and written about by so called journalists who have no idea what they are talking about-often never having played the game. Plus there is always an agenda. And VAR has made it all worse.

With respect Blue I don't really care about Cricket/ Rugby or most other sports. Football (and MMA) is my passion so that's what I focus on.

If a team or player feels they can gain the upper hand somehow by choosing unsavoury tactics, I say go for it. Three points/ winning games really is all that matters in football and I'd personally happily see my players do what was necessary to achieve them, even if it means manipulating the rules of play. The way I personally see it is I'd rather be a fan of the team that's hated and wins stuff than be a fan who complains how others are achieving success.

Many of the successful teams in the recent era have been known to dabble (at the least) with darker arts:
Pep's City and Barca sides enjoyed the tactical foul approach, his Barca side also loved a dive and feigning an injury to increase the chance of a booking.
Ramos' ****housery at Madrid is the most elite I've seen and their success speaks volumes.
Italian teams in general have a very unsportsmanlike attitude, they dive, tactical foul and complain to referees by signalling for cards at every convenience.
Even Leicester, when they won the title Vardy built a reputation of being very clever with how he forced contact on him in order to go down and win a penalty/ freekick, when he actually got caught out for it he got sent off by getting a second yellow, didn't make a difference to the season in the end but those sort antics gave Leicester an edge throughout.

I agree football nowadays is corrupt and that VAR has definitely made things worse, unfortunately there's not much that can be done, UEFA/ FIFA and even the FA's or each country are too powerful to be contested.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I used to enjoy watching rugby union. No longer. Changes to the game have robbed it of much that was good about it. Scrums and lineouts are a blight on the game. It slows matters up considerably, with all too many technical infringements. It's becoming like NFL

Likewise, Premier League football is becoming dull. As soon as a team looks like they're going to attack, the player with the ball is hacked at by the opposition. The referee gives a free kick, which is no advantage and if the same player repeatedly commits this foul, he might get booked...maybe? The Champions League is the same. Apart from our games, I'm bothering to watch it less and less.

I've taken to watching more of the Bundesliga. Despite Leipzig's performance on Wednesday, the football is a lot more open and flowing. On the whole, it's less cynical and VAR is controlled by the referee and most altered decisions are clear and obvious errors, that don't take an age to address. It's like football of a decade ago in this country. Add in that it costs a fraction of what we pay to watch and the stadiums are rocking, I'm properly jealous.

As a start, I'd like to see any foul that doesn't arise from an attempt to play the ball to be a mandatory yellow card. It'd make the game an awful lot better to watch... isn't that supposed to be the point?

 

[Blue and White]

For me football is seeing Son's goals against Chelsea and Burnley. Neither would have happened if those teams had performed 'dark arts'.
DH- you say you are a fan of the unsavoury tactics and MMA. so you like a good fight?
I enjoy sport and like to see proper skill.

DH please don't take it personally- you have a perfectly valid case. It just contradicts with mine.

BTW if you cut out the unsportsmanlike attitude from the game, then it would make it a more level playing field and maybe we could win stuff.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

With respect Blue I don't really care about Cricket/ Rugby or most other sports. Football (and MMA) is my passion so that's what I focus on.

If a team or player feels they can gain the upper hand somehow by choosing unsavoury tactics, I say go for it. Three points/ winning games really is all that matters in football and I'd personally happily see my players do what was necessary to achieve them, even if it means manipulating the rules of play. The way I personally see it is I'd rather be a fan of the team that's hated and wins stuff than be a fan who complains how others are achieving success.

Many of the successful teams in the recent era have been known to dabble (at the least) with darker arts:
Pep's City and Barca sides enjoyed the tactical foul approach, his Barca side also loved a dive and feigning an injury to increase the chance of a booking.
Ramos' ****housery at Madrid is the most elite I've seen and their success speaks volumes.
Italian teams in general have a very unsportsmanlike attitude, they dive, tactical foul and complain to referees by signalling for cards at every convenience.
Even Leicester, when they won the title Vardy built a reputation of being very clever with how he forced contact on him in order to go down and win a penalty/ freekick, when he actually got caught out for it he got sent off by getting a second yellow, didn't make a difference to the season in the end but those sort antics gave Leicester an edge throughout.

I agree football nowadays is corrupt and that VAR has definitely made things worse, unfortunately there's not much that can be done, UEFA/ FIFA and even the FA's or each country are too powerful to be contested.

The thing with dabbling in the dark arts is there comes a point where it becomes actively obnoxious to watch

The machine gunning tactics used by Steptonho's Chelsea and Guardiola's Sheikh Mansour Team are the most obvious example, because people watching the game can see what's going on but the referee remains oblivious even though it's clearly not a coincidence that the same player is getting hacked down two, three or four times in a row but not by the same player

Similar goes with when a player with a hard-won reputation for hurling themselves to the deck to win a penalty just so happens to fall over in the penalty area to win a penalty when a team who need the win is currently not winning - and what makes that one supremely aggravating is how Brendan Rodgers mouthing off about Gareth Bale diving (when he was fouled for the incident in question) meant defenders were able to wrestle him to the ground with impunity for the remainder of the season, yet the likes of Drogba, Suarez, van Nistelrooy etc got the benefit of the doubt countless times, and it;s made even more obnoxious when the likes of Alan Shearer, Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard, David Beckham or Jamie Vardy dive and get away with it because the pundits who were so critical of Drogba et al never say a word about it if it's one of those Nice English Boys

On the subject of diving, one thing I find particularly galling is the habit that Rodgers' Saltypool team had the year they were trying (and failing) to win the title, namely how Suarez, Sturridge or Gerrard would take a tumble in the area in the first half to try and get an advantage, which somehow felt worse than a team diving to try and snatch a late result, as instead they were resorting to diving as early as possible

More than anything else, it's when teams hide behind a reputation from years or even decades ago to get away with some thuggery on the pitch. Case in point, the Brazil team of the 2014 World Cup were guilty of some real thuggery on the pitch but the referees turned a blind eye to it, presumably blinded by visions of Pele and Zico to notice that the only Brazilian icon their team was actually emulating was Royce Gracie, especially in that Colombia match - and they're hardly the only team to do this, as the Dutch were happy to let pundits talk about Cruyff and van Basten while participating in The Battle of Nuremberg in 2006 while turning the 2010 final into a solid recreation of the Battle of Lake Trasimene

 

[Dier Hard]

The thing with dabbling in the dark arts is there comes a point where it becomes actively obnoxious to watch

The machine gunning tactics used by Steptonho's Chelsea and Guardiola's Sheikh Mansour Team are the most obvious example, because people watching the game can see what's going on but the referee remains oblivious even though it's clearly not a coincidence that the same player is getting hacked down two, three or four times in a row but not by the same player

Similar goes with when a player with a hard-won reputation for hurling themselves to the deck to win a penalty just so happens to fall over in the penalty area to win a penalty when a team who need the win is currently not winning - and what makes that one supremely aggravating is how Brendan Rodgers mouthing off about Gareth Bale diving (when he was fouled for the incident in question) meant defenders were able to wrestle him to the ground with impunity for the remainder of the season, yet the likes of Drogba, Suarez, van Nistelrooy etc got the benefit of the doubt countless times, and it;s made even more obnoxious when the likes of Alan Shearer, Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard, David Beckham or Jamie Vardy dive and get away with it because the pundits who were so critical of Drogba et al never say a word about it if it's one of those Nice English Boys

On the subject of diving, one thing I find particularly galling is the habit that Rodgers' Saltypool team had the year they were trying (and failing) to win the title, namely how Suarez, Sturridge or Gerrard would take a tumble in the area in the first half to try and get an advantage, which somehow felt worse than a team diving to try and snatch a late result, as instead they were resorting to diving as early as possible

More than anything else, it's when teams hide behind a reputation from years or even decades ago to get away with some thuggery on the pitch. Case in point, the Brazil team of the 2014 World Cup were guilty of some real thuggery on the pitch but the referees turned a blind eye to it, presumably blinded by visions of Pele and Zico to notice that the only Brazilian icon their team was actually emulating was Royce Gracie, especially in that Colombia match - and they're hardly the only team to do this, as the Dutch were happy to let pundits talk about Cruyff and van Basten while participating in The Battle of Nuremberg in 2006 while turning the 2010 final into a solid recreation of the Battle of Lake Trasimene

It only really becomes obnoxious to the losers though I'd say. The teams getting away with it and winning league titles/ trophies won't really care. If we ****housed our way to a title or trophy like Jose Chelsea/ Pep City I'd love it (preferably the latter, as they also played brilliant football) and the manner we won it wouldn't bother me.

Rightly or wrongly dark arts seem to play a huge factor these days so I'd rather we get up to speed with it rather than constantly being/ feeling the victims of it. If we didn't have to use it, great, but equally if the situation called for it, we should be 'prepared' to take the necessary actions.

 

[Dier Hard]

For me football is seeing Son's goals against Chelsea and Burnley. Neither would have happened if those teams had performed 'dark arts'.
DH- you say you are a fan of the unsavoury tactics and MMA. so you like a good fight?
I enjoy sport and like to see proper skill.

DH please don't take it personally- you have a perfectly valid case. It just contradicts with mine.

BTW if you cut out the unsportsmanlike attitude from the game, then it would make it a more level playing field and maybe we could win stuff.

Without a doubt, Son's goals were a thing of beauty but if the shoe was flipped and an opposition player done that against us I'd be fuming - especially the Burnley one where multiple players were close to him - that no one 'took one for the team'.

I too love seeing skill but I'm equally not against having to perhaps be the bad guy to get a result. I could watch videos of Messi/ Ronaldo (CR7 and R9)/ Ronaldinho all day long, yet equally enjoy watching a YouTube compilation of Sergio Ramos being a dick.

Your latter sentence I personally disagree with though, we've lost plenty of big games fair and square to suggest that a lack of sportsmanship has played a huge part in our failure to win stuff. Admittedly something like the CL final hurts after that refereeing decision although I'm someone that just prefers not talking about that night, the decision and our subsequently embarrassing performance is something I'd rather forget. In general though we've not won enough stuff simply because we've not been good enough - or not turned up when required.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

It only really becomes obnoxious to the losers though I'd say. The teams getting away with it and winning league titles/ trophies won't really care. If we ****housed our way to a title or trophy like Jose Chelsea/ Pep City I'd love it (preferably the latter, as they also played brilliant football) and the manner we won it wouldn't bother me.

Rightly or wrongly dark arts seem to play a huge factor these days so I'd rather we get up to speed with it rather than constantly being/ feeling the victims of it. If we didn't have to use it, great, but equally if the situation called for it, we should be 'prepared' to take the necessary actions.

It's obnoxious to neutrals too, though, which is why I mentioned the various Brazilian and Dutch teams whose tactical discussions mainly involved watching The Warriors and deciding whether they were the Gramercy Riffs or Baseball Furies

 

[Spurf]

Hi Spurf, if this is your message that you are done with the game then i will happily step into your role as tottenham board forum moderator.

With regards to Lo celso, it all happened very quickly and whereas i don't think there is any malice, it was an action that endangered another player (purely because he was slower in this case). That sort of stuff is what gets you red cards whether it was an accident or not (i actually think the flying kick that caught kovacic was worse even though that was a 50/50).

The body checking and grappling of players has been part of the dark arts thats been going on for yonks. I believe the worse for these are from the likes of the allardyces, the warnocks, the pulises and the dyches. saying that, i haven't seen leipzig play too much but the pep sides are prime suspects for these to stop any counter attack.

Taking you at your word everyone is always welcome to challenge the situation of the mods. We do it with the consent of board members and it's worth saying that the present mods have no divine right to be mods and if the Spurs board decides otherwise then that's as it should be. I suspect that the other two mods will agree with me because I think we know each other pretty well but they will speak for themselves I am not a spokesman these are my views.

 

[Spurf]

With respect Blue I don't really care about Cricket/ Rugby or most other sports. Football (and MMA) is my passion so that's what I focus on.

If a team or player feels they can gain the upper hand somehow by choosing unsavoury tactics, I say go for it. Three points/ winning games really is all that matters in football and I'd personally happily see my players do what was necessary to achieve them, even if it means manipulating the rules of play. The way I personally see it is I'd rather be a fan of the team that's hated and wins stuff than be a fan who complains how others are achieving success.

Many of the successful teams in the recent era have been known to dabble (at the least) with darker arts:
Pep's City and Barca sides enjoyed the tactical foul approach, his Barca side also loved a dive and feigning an injury to increase the chance of a booking.
Ramos' ****housery at Madrid is the most elite I've seen and their success speaks volumes.
Italian teams in general have a very unsportsmanlike attitude, they dive, tactical foul and complain to referees by signalling for cards at every convenience.
Even Leicester, when they won the title Vardy built a reputation of being very clever with how he forced contact on him in order to go down and win a penalty/ freekick, when he actually got caught out for it he got sent off by getting a second yellow, didn't make a difference to the season in the end but those sort antics gave Leicester an edge throughout.

I agree football nowadays is corrupt and that VAR has definitely made things worse, unfortunately there's not much that can be done, UEFA/ FIFA and even the FA's or each country are too powerful to be contested.

DH your views are almost diametrically opposed to mine but I love the honesty with which you express them and I can respect you for that. It's almost a different game that you watch and it highlights why, as I said in the original post, that I am doubting my understanding of current football. Do you think a lot of young people share your attitude to 'The dark arts' ?

 

[Dier Hard]

Taking you at your word everyone is always welcome to challenge the situation of the mods. We do it with the consent of board members and it's worth saying that the present mods have no divine right to be mods and if the Spurs board decides otherwise then that's as it should be. I suspect that the other two mods will agree with me because I think we know each other pretty well but they will speak for themselves I am not a spokesman these are my views.

I tried campaigning to be Prem board mod over a year ago, I even had a witty slogan of [HASHTAG]#MakeNot606GreatAgain[/HASHTAG] but I didn't get the gig.

Can't think why to be honest

 

[Spurf]

I tried campaigning to be Prem board mod over a year ago, I even had a witty slogan of [HASHTAG]#MakeNot606GreatAgain[/HASHTAG] but I didn't get the gig.

Can't think why to be honest

perhaps your dark arts are more suited to the Arsenal board or the Chelsea board. You could try it on the City board, not too much opposition there.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I tried campaigning to be Prem board mod over a year ago, I even had a witty slogan of [HASHTAG]#MakeNot606GreatAgain[/HASHTAG] but I didn't get the gig.

Can't think why to be honest

Better than my slogan of "The following users will be banned from our board..."

 

[Dier Hard]

DH your views are almost diametrically opposed to mine but I love the honesty with which you express them and I can respect you for that. It's almost a different game that you watch and it highlights why, as I said in the original post, that I am doubting my understanding of current football. Do you think a lot of young people share your attitude to 'The dark arts' ?

Probably not if I'm honest. I think it's more down to attitude and personality. I have a "bit of a dick" persona about me which I'm sure the board has realised over the years - don't worry, my friends and family acknowledge it too! So it's why I'm someone who likely enjoys seeing that side of the game more so than others.

Case in point, when Lamela winds someone up or goes in with a bad tackle yet tries to plead his innocence as if he never touched the opponent, I find that amusing, many wouldn't but I think it shows how I view things. Equally, when I see an opposition player do the same to us I lose my rag . It's why I like Sergio Ramos so much, thankfully we don't have to play Real Madrid too often so I don't need to worry about him doing it against us but from a neutral standpoint I think the guy is absolute box office - though it was great seeing Mousa Dembele manhandle him at Wembley! Only way to deal with Ramos is to play him at his own game.

In general though, I think the game - rightly or wrongly (mainly wrongly) - is implementing more and more of the dark arts and so my viewpoint is I'd rather we be adept in it than find ourselves being the victim of it.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Probably not if I'm honest. I think it's more down to attitude and personality. I have a "bit of a dick" persona about me which I'm sure the board has realised over the years - don't worry, my friends and family acknowledge it too! So it's why I'm someone who likely enjoys seeing that side of the game more so than others.

Case in point, when Lamela winds someone up or goes in with a bad tackle yet tries to plead his innocence as if he never touched the opponent, I find that amusing, many wouldn't but I think it shows how I view things. Equally, when I see an opposition player do the same to us I lose my rag . It's why I like Sergio Ramos so much, thankfully we don't have to play Real Madrid too often so I don't need to worry about him doing it against us but from a neutral standpoint I think the guy is absolute box office.

In general though, I think the game - rightly or wrongly (mainly wrongly) - is implementing more and more of the dark arts and so my viewpoint is I'd rather we be adept in it than find ourselves being the victim of it.

What irks me about the dark arts is the double standards people have

Lamela poleaxes somebody, the pundits froth at the mouth and demand he be burned at the stake
Paul Scholes poleaxes somebody, the pundits think it's funny

It's similar to how foreign players who dive are bad, but when English players dive they either don't mention it or try and justify it in increasingly sociopathic ways

 

[Dier Hard]

What irks me about the dark arts is the double standards people have

Lamela poleaxes somebody, the pundits froth at the mouth and demand he be burned at the stake
Paul Scholes poleaxes somebody, the pundits think it's funny

It's similar to how foreign players who dive are bad, but when English players dive they either don't mention it or try and justify it in increasingly sociopathic ways

Yeah I've noticed that, thankfully I do my best to mute the level of punditry I have to listen too. Rarely watch MOTD these days, I'm at home games so it's only really away games where I have to put up with some biased moron on Sky/ BT/ Online stream.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Yeah I've noticed that, thankfully I do my best to mute the level of punditry I have to listen too. Rarely watch MOTD these days, I'm at home games so it's only really away games where I have to put up with some biased moron on Sky/ BT/ Online stream.

Amazon lets you turn them off, but keep the crowd noise on. They almost encourage it by using **** pundits, too.