The 'At least Mr B offered' US Grand Prix predictions and chat

With regard to the Verstappen v Räikkönen overtake and the podium debacle, I'm embarrassed at the inconsistency…

Regardless of whether or not one agrees with this particular decision*, the fact is that F1 drivers (as well as everyone else) are guessing at tolerance levels for what is or is not acceptable! I've read differing views in this thread which accurately reflect ongoing discussion / opinion (and confusion!) at the circuit.

In my opinion, there is only one reasonable way forward: four wheels over ANY track limit defining white line (inside or outside line should be treated equally), at ANY time during qualifying or race should not be acceptable unless it can be shown that a driver actually lost time by doing so, because drivers are human and do make genuine mistakes**. Drivers and others are currently guessing at what is acceptable – hence the emergence of greyness and disgruntled partisanship – which does nothing to improve F1's position with its fan-base.

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*I'll offer an opinion in another post.
**At turn 1 during the race (and by extension, the whole of the first lap), it is virtually impossible to prove a 'loss' of time, since establishing a baseline norm is difficult in the extreme; hence the present tolerance. However, after the first lap, norms are reasonably established and a clear, definitive rule for the remainder of the race can be properly policed in tune with audience understanding – and consistently enforced!

 

Whilst i agree with everyone that'd i like to see track limits enforced more than they were today. I think an overtake is a massively more significant advantage than track extending into the final corner. I don't think getting away with latter means you can expect the former to be fine. Track limits for qualy laps have gone back and forth, but nobody ever gets away with cutting a corner to pass. I really can't recall one equivalent where they got let off.


I think the only confusion is being caused by the FIA's efforts to reduce the number of penalties (unless its for the engine...) this season. You have to rewrite the rules, not just decide to be lenient in enforcing them. Otherwise you get into all of sorts of trouble deciding on case by case basis where exactly the line for "OK that's too far" is.

 

Good post, JC.

The positive to take from today is that it has brought this whole problem of vagueness into focus. Let's hope clarity (for all) emerges as a result!

 

I was thinking the same. Let's see if anything changes. Chances are it could all be forgotten come next weekend.

 

well, I posted the 'Zanardi pass', which for me, is a blatant piss-take, that they handed him the championship for it was a disgrace. In F1, Hamilton on Rosberg at Bahrain, I think he got the benefit of the doubt because of Rosberg's rather violent defence and he used the sand rather than run-off.

 

You're right, the Zanardi move was quite ridiculous. But you know, what would motorsport be without those moments of crazy controversy. While they completely stink sometimes, it does give us something to chew over.

 

F1 politics makes it an inconsistent laughing stock once again.

Verstappen with an amazing drive and although he's a little hot head he's future WDC written all over him. Raikonnen should be embarrassed that he even got close to him from that grid position.

Whiting has to be the most useless person within the sport now- he's like the Louis Walsh of F1 ffs.

I also think that had it not been a red car that Max overtook, he'd have been fine, but that's another story.

 

I don't know if I'm being overly critical but I found Vettel strangely underwhelming yesterday. He didn't give Hamilton the position but he put up a fairly limp fight. Burnt through his tyres and didn't get away from the rarely impressive Kimi.

Maybe I'm just annoyed that we got a Hamilton Vettel battle and Vettel did nothing with it. That and I'm used to Ferrari having a fast race car than quali car.

 

Lewis is reminding me alot of Schumacher. Especially with how he is always winning and annoyingly faster than anyone else.

I agree on Vettel. It does feel like he has bottled this one and is looking a bit beat.

 

My opinion on this latest Verstappen incident.

• Drivers should respect track limits and not choose to take short-cuts except as outlined in my next point.​
• All four wheels over a track-defining white line should only be tolerated if it occurs in order to avoid collision or as a result of driver error; provable by a loss of time, as mentioned in my previous post.​
• Given the excessive* tolerance shown to drivers throughout this race and all sessions over the weekend, I disagree with the decision to demote Verstappen for this particular incident despite its podium deciding significance (which should not be considered relevant). – It is a blatant example of inconsistency during a single event, never mind what's been allowed to go unpunished throughout the whole season leading up to it. So, I think I can understand why Verstappen, his family and the Red Bull Racing team feel aggrieved…​

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* Running wide on the exit of a corner is usually the result of excessive speed through the apex and/or getting on the throttle too early for the tyres and/or chassis. The result is that a driver can choose to explore the limits of chassis, tyres and him/herself, safe in the knowledge that the consequence of getting it wrong is minimal relative to the potential gain of such 'exploration'. Furthermore, dependant upon track layout and grip levels, running wide can sometimes gain as much as short-cutting an apex. For this reason, four wheels over a white line should be regarded in the same light on both sides of the track, regardless of whether it is on the inside or outside of a corner – or anywhere else, for that matter.​

 

why are the curbs wider than a car? is it for all the monster truck racing they do?

 

Niki Lauda's two-penneth: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132578/verstappen-decision-the-worst-ever--lauda

"This decision is the worst I've ever seen, he did nothing wrong," said Lauda.

"Charlie [Whiting, F1 race director] argues all the time there's white lines and you cannot drive over them," he said.

"Why cannot you drive over white lines if it is possible? Build a wall there if you want.

"As long as there is normal circuit, you can use it. A white line is not a limit.

"We agreed this all, last year it was all agreed. And now we get this decision. I think it's completely wrong."

 

soon as they do something about it every team and driver cries. remember the 'sausage strips'? If you took the piss with them they could break your suspension (Massa?). If they can't go flat out across a corner they'll find a way to complain about 'safety' the first time one of them gets caught out.

 

I'm not a fan of the running wide scenario myself. Anyone who has raced a car will now that its not always about gaining an advantage, its also about limiting the disadvantage - which is by definition advantageous.

Turn 1 incidents at COTA are a great example, Nico and Lewis had their lean on and coming together of sorts here previously, which only happened due to an intent by both drivers to fail to yield and the fact that there is a get out clause in being able to run wide and limit the disadvantage. It was noticeable that this year Lewis yielded and slotted in straight behind Seb, fair, sensible and within the rules. Compare that with Bottas and Ric. Lets forget arguing the toss of the initial move and focus on the choices that were available.

Bottas could have forced contact and argued it in the stewards office.
Bottas could have yielded, squared off the corner and attacked an out of position low momentum Ricc into the following corners, but would have to sacrifice track position.
Bottas could have bailed out of the corner, kept his momentum whilst driving off track and having an inside line into the next turn and retain track position.

The question is what do the rules allow, promote and encourage and if the track had deterrents would it be possible to choose all of the options?

 

If that's the case then the teams really have been wasting a lot of time doing those s sections.

 

Bring back some big dirty gravel traps FFS.

Punish the buggers with real time loss or race ending mistakes

 

I have said for bloody ages they should bring gravel traps back .

Does my head in .

 

If they had Gravel traps they'd need some kind of catch fencing if it all went wrong. goinginto the gravel trap at speed can pitch a car into a barrel roll, a bit like Alonso in Australia, so Safety officer says no.

 

YEP, used to work fine, although they will have to be larger than they used to be, but probably not bigger than the current massive run off areas, There has to be a negative consequence for those that run outside the track limits,