The Aidan O Brien Appreciation thread

[Deleted 1]

Last night the Master of Ballydoyle was referred to on here as a disastrous trainer who wrecks his hoses. This is how bad a trainer the man really is:

Ireland
1000 Guineas – (5) – Classic Park (1997), Imagine (2001), Yesterday (2003), Halfway to Heaven (2008), Misty for Me (2011)
Irish 2,000 Guineas – (8) – Desert King (1997), Saffron Walden (1999), Black Minnaloushe (2001), Rock of Gibraltar (2002), Henrythenavigator (2008), Mastercraftsman (2009), Roderic O'Connor (2011), Power (2012)
Irish Champion Stakes – (7) – Giant's Causeway (2000), High Chaparral (2003), Oratorio (2005), Dylan Thomas (2006, 2007), Cape Blanco (2010), So You Think (2011)
Irish Derby – (10) – Desert King (1997), Galileo (2001), High Chaparral (2002), Dylan Thomas (2006), Soldier of Fortune (2007), Frozen Fire (2008), Fame and Glory (2009), Cape Blanco (2010), Treasure Beach (2011), Camelot (2012)
Irish Oaks – (3) – Alexandrova (2006), Peeping Fawn (2007), Moonstone (2008)
Irish St. Leger – (2) – Yeats (2007), Septimus (2008)
Matron Stakes – (1) – Lillie Langtry (2010)
Moyglare Stud Stakes – (6) – Sequoyah (2000), Quarter Moon (2001), Necklace (2003), Rumplestiltskin (2005), Misty for Me (2010), Maybe (2011)
National Stakes – (8) – Desert King (1996), King of Kings (1997), Beckett (2000), Hawk Wing (2001), One Cool Cat (2003), George Washington (2005), Mastercraftsman (2008), Power (2011)
Phoenix Stakes – (11) – Lavery (1998), Fasliyev (1999), Minardi (2000), Johannesburg (2001), Spartacus (2002), One Cool Cat (2003), George Washington (2005), Holy Roman Emperor (2006), Mastercraftsman (2008), Alfred Nobel (2009), Zoffany (2010)
Pretty Polly Stakes – (2) – Peeping Fawn (2007), Misty For Me (2011)
Tattersalls Gold Cup – (6) – Black Sam Bellamy (2003), Powerscourt (2004), Duke of Marmalade (2008), Fame and Glory (2010), So You Think (2011, 2012)
Canada
Canadian International – (2) – Ballingarry (2002), Joshua Tree (2010)
France
Poule d'Essai des Poulains – (3) – Landseer (2002), Aussie Rules (2006), Astronomer Royal (2007)
Poule d'Essai des Pouliches – (1) – Rose Gypsy (2001)
Critérium International – (3) – Mount Nelson (2006), Jan Vermeer (2009), Roderic O'Connor (2010)
Critérium de Saint-Cloud – (3) – Ballingarry (2001), Alberto Giacometti (2002), Fame and Glory (2008), Recital (2010)
Grand Prix de Paris – (2) – Scorpion (2005), Imperial Monarch (2012)
Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe – (1) – Dylan Thomas (2007)
Prix Ganay – (2) – Dylan Thomas (2007), Duke of Marmalade (2008)
Prix Jean-Luc Lagardère – (7) – Second Empire (1997), Ciro (1999), Rock of Gibraltar (2001), Hold That Tiger (2002), Oratorio (2004), Horatio Nelson (2005), Holy Roman Emperor (2006)
Prix Lupin – (1) – Ciro (2000)
Prix Marcel Boussac – (2) – Rumplestiltskin (2005), Misty for Me (2010)
Prix Maurice de Gheest – (1) – King Charlemagne (2001)
Prix Morny – (3) – Orpen (1998), Fasliyev (1999), Johannesburg (2001)
Prix du Moulin de Longchamp – (1) – Rock of Gibraltar (2002)
Prix Royal-Oak – (1) – Yeats (2008)
Prix de la Salamandre – (1) – Giant's Causeway (1999)
Great Britain
1,000 Guineas – (2) – Virginia Waters (2005), Homecoming Queen (2012)
2,000 Guineas – (6) – King of Kings (1998), Rock of Gibraltar (2002), Footstepsinthesand (2005), George Washington (2006), Henrythenavigator (2008), Camelot (2012)
Ascot Gold Cup – (5) – Yeats (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009), Fame and Glory (2011)
Champion Hurdle – (3) – Istabraq (1998, 1999, 2000)
Coronation Cup – (6) – Yeats (2005), Scorpion (2007), Soldier of Fortune (2008), Fame and Glory (2010), St Nicholas Abbey (2011, 2012)
Coronation Stakes – (2) – Sophisticat (2002), Lillie Langtry (2010)
Derby Stakes – (3) – Galileo (2001), High Chaparral (2002), Camelot (2012)
Dewhurst Stakes – (2) – Rock of Gibraltar (2001), Beethoven (2009)
Eclipse Stakes – (5) – Giant's Causeway (2000), Hawk Wing (2002), Oratorio (2005), Mount Nelson (2008), So You Think (2011)
Fillies' Mile – (2) – Sunspangled (1998), Listen (2007)
Golden Jubilee Stakes – (1) – Starspangledbanner (2010)
International Stakes – (3) – Giant's Causeway (2000), Duke of Marmalade (2008), Rip Van Winkle (2010)
July Cup – (3) – Stravinsky (1999), Mozart (2001), Starspangledbanner (2010)
King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes – (3) – Galileo (2001), Dylan Thomas (2007), Duke of Marmalade (2008)
Lockinge Stakes – (1) – Hawk Wing (2003)
Middle Park Stakes – (4) – Minardi (2000), Johannesburg (2001), Ad Valorem (2004), Crusade (2011)
Nassau Stakes – (2) – Peeping Fawn (2007), Halfway to Heaven (2008)
Nunthorpe Stakes – (2) – Stravinsky (1999), Mozart (2001)
Oaks – (4) – Shahtoush (1998), Imagine (2001), Alexandrova (2006), Was (2012)
Prince of Wales's Stakes – (2) – Duke of Marmalade (2008), So You Think (2012)
Queen Anne Stakes – (2) – Ad Valorem (2006), Haradasun (2008)
Queen Elizabeth II Stakes – (2) – George Washington (2006), Rip Van Winkle (2009)
Racing Post Trophy – (6) – Saratoga Springs (1997), Aristotle (1999), High Chaparral (2001), Brian Boru (2002), St Nicholas Abbey (2009), Camelot (2011)
St. James's Palace Stakes – (6) – Giant's Causeway (2000), Black Minnaloushe (2001), Rock of Gibraltar (2002), Excellent Art (2007), Henrythenavigator (2008), Mastercraftsman (2009)
St. Leger – (3) – Milan (2001), Brian Boru (2003), Scorpion (2005)
Sun Chariot Stakes – (1) – Halfway to Heaven (2008)
Sussex Stakes – (4) – Giant's Causeway (2000), Rock of Gibraltar (2002), Henrythenavigator (2008), Rip Van Winkle (2009)
Yorkshire Oaks – (2) – Alexandrova (2006), Peeping Fawn (2007)
Italy
Gran Criterium – (2) – Sholokhov (2001), Spartacus (2002)
Gran Premio del Jockey Club – (1) – Black Sam Bellamy (2002)
United States
Arlington Million – (2) – Powerscourt (2005), Cape Blanco (2011)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile – (1) – Johannesburg (2001)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf – (1) – Wrote (2011)
Breeders' Cup Marathon – (1) – Man of Iron (2009)
Breeders' Cup Turf – (3) – High Chaparral (2002, 2003 DH), St Nicholas Abbey (2011)
Joe Hirsch Turf Classic Invitational Stakes - (1) - Cape Blanco (2011)
Man o' War Stakes – (1) – Cape Blanco (2011)
Secretariat Stakes – (2) – Ciro (2000), Treasure Beach (2011)
Shadwell Turf Mile Stakes – (2) – Landseer (2002), Aussie Rules (2006)
Queen Elizabeth II Challenge Cup Stakes - (1) - Together (2011)
United Arab Emirates
UAE Derby - (1) - Daddy Long Legs (2012)

 

[GGW]

Completely agree Dan

 

[Deleted 1]

Completely agree Dan

I thought you might! I think the problem he has (and I often feel the same about Paul Nicholls and Nicky Henderson in the other code) is that he has so many horses in the yard that it's often difficult to know who's the best for each race. He could have 6 potential Derby winners but can't enter them all - and in the past Nicky Henderson could have single handedly assembled a decent field for the champion Hurdle and ditto Nicholls with the Cheltenham Gold cup.

I suppose it's the nature of the beast that once you're successful any failure will be leapt on with glee by detractors - and before anyone says it I know i've been quick to do that when Seven barrows or Freemason lodge are struggling!

 

[QuarterMoonII]

All of those big race wins do look impressive if ignoring the fact that a small handful of horses have contributed a large number of them. When Camelot won this year’s Epsom Derby, he was accompanied by only one stablemate. In the previous three years, Ballydoyle had provided almost half the field each year and won none. The almost total domination of Irish racing by Coolmore this century makes the ‘home’ statistics – continually farming the Irish Classics – very hollow.

Given the same horses, I think it would be reasonable to think that Sir Michael Stoute or Sir Henry Cecil would have placed their horses better and achieved better results. Running half the horses in the yard in big races and playing the statistics does not make a great trainer.

How many former Ballydoyle inmates are now plying their trade in South Africa, India, Hong Kong, etc.?

This thread should be renamed the Aidan O’Brien Excuse Thread and we can go back over the years and list the rubbish that the maestro has offered as reasons for horses not producing the goods. Let us start with the 2012 King George: St Nicholas Abbey – the ground was not quick enough.

 

[Deleted 1]

All of those big race wins do look impressive if ignoring the fact that a small handful of horses have contributed a large number of them. When Camelot won this year’s Epsom Derby, he was accompanied by only one stablemate. In the previous three years, Ballydoyle had provided almost half the field each year and won none. The almost total domination of Irish racing by Coolmore this century makes the ‘home’ statistics – continually farming the Irish Classics – very hollow.

Given the same horses, I think it would be reasonable to think that Sir Michael Stoute or Sir Henry Cecil would have placed their horses better and achieved better results. Running half the horses in the yard in big races and playing the statistics does not make a great trainer.

How many former Ballydoyle inmates are now plying their trade in South Africa, India, Hong Kong, etc.?

This thread should be renamed the Aidan O’Brien Excuse Thread and we can go back over the years and list the rubbish that the maestro has offered as reasons for horses not producing the goods. Let us start with the 2012 King George: St Nicholas Abbey – the ground was not quick enough.

That's a good point - no other trainer ever offers tenuous excuses for their horses failing. Oh, wait a minute............

 

[Dexter]

All of those big race wins do look impressive if ignoring the fact that a small handful of horses have contributed a large number of them. When Camelot won this year’s Epsom Derby, he was accompanied by only one stablemate. In the previous three years, Ballydoyle had provided almost half the field each year and won none. The almost total domination of Irish racing by Coolmore this century makes the ‘home’ statistics – continually farming the Irish Classics – very hollow.

Given the same horses, I think it would be reasonable to think that Sir Michael Stoute or Sir Henry Cecil would have placed their horses better and achieved better results. Running half the horses in the yard in big races and playing the statistics does not make a great trainer.

How many former Ballydoyle inmates are now plying their trade in South Africa, India, Hong Kong, etc.?

This thread should be renamed the Aidan O’Brien Excuse Thread and we can go back over the years and list the rubbish that the maestro has offered as reasons for horses not producing the goods. Let us start with the 2012 King George: St Nicholas Abbey – the ground was not quick enough.

Goodness QM....you really need a vinyl couch session..such persistent bitterness and vitriol against someone you don't even know.

Interesting that John Gosden rates him "a genius"..but what he would he know.

 

[Quelesprit]

He's awful. Only a terrible trainer would get Homecoming Queen to win the 1000 when she's clearly average, Was to win the Oaks when she's also very average and Camelot to win the 2000 when he's definitely a middle distance horse all in one season. What a loser.

 

[Quelesprit]

All of those big race wins do look impressive if ignoring the fact that a small handful of horses have contributed a large number of them. When Camelot won this year’s Epsom Derby, he was accompanied by only one stablemate. In the previous three years, Ballydoyle had provided almost half the field each year and won none. The almost total domination of Irish racing by Coolmore this century makes the ‘home’ statistics – continually farming the Irish Classics – very hollow.

Given the same horses, I think it would be reasonable to think that Sir Michael Stoute or Sir Henry Cecil would have placed their horses better and achieved better results. Running half the horses in the yard in big races and playing the statistics does not make a great trainer.

How many former Ballydoyle inmates are now plying their trade in South Africa, India, Hong Kong, etc.?

This thread should be renamed the Aidan O’Brien Excuse Thread and we can go back over the years and list the rubbish that the maestro has offered as reasons for horses not producing the goods. Let us start with the 2012 King George: St Nicholas Abbey – the ground was not quick enough.

You are living in the past if you think Stoute could produce similar stats as O'Brien.

 

[Ardent1965]

Look the mans useless and he knows it himself....

The Independant 21st June 2012

O'Brien was at extravagant pains to abase himself before those Australian critics who had perceived some loss of zest in So You Think.

"We've had him a year and a half and that's how long it has taken me to learn how to train him," he declared. "I'd just like to say sorry to all the Australian people, that I made such a mess of it for so long. We were rightly getting a fair hammering from them but we needed to pull our socks up. I was probably working him too often, too long and too hard. I was killing him by making him grind, but even so he was very competitive."

How many others is he grinding down?

Who would train your horses? O'Brien no takers!

 

[the don]

Personally his results speak for themselves although I understand where people are coming from when they say with that sort of ammo he should have done better...

I think the main reason there are so many people who dont rate him or even intensely dislike him is because of his interviews and more specifically his post race interviews. He doenst come across like a likeable chap to me at any point but some of the rubbish excuses / comments he has made makes punters / racing experts red with rage.... he never ever tells the truth, thats not uncommon in racing, but he tells bare face lies and thats the difference.

 

[Quelesprit]

I can say with 100% authority that other trainers hold O'Brien in the highest regard. Steve Gollings couldn't speak highly enough of him and his methods. For instance, Steve went over to O'Briens for a few days to watch him train. He was blown away by the training methods they employed. One of which he's now implemented in Lincolnshire which is to get walkie talkie's and ear pieces and use them when the yard are riding out. It lets him dictate the pace of the horses at all times which was a major problem at the yard with some doing too much and others not enough. It seems like a simple thing to do but I guarantee most yards don't do it. Steve's convinced doing just that has improved the quality of his training, the value he delivers to his owners and the performance of his horses.

To be honest I despair when people say he's a poor trainer. It's utter tripe.

 

[rainbowview]

I wouldn't say WAS is average Quel

if she is average the whole lot of them are as the form is very solid and has stood up well - Great Heavens looks the exceptional filly.

Was was badly hampered today and would have finished 2nd imo if not for that

And QM how can the ground not be a valid excuse ? he loves quick ground same as WAS didn't want heavy ground today. I don't think there is a trainer who hasn't used the ground as an excuse in the past. SMS does it every week

 

[Quelesprit]

At the top table she's no better than average.

 

[Quelesprit]

Wasn't it only a few years ago that Sir Henry Cecil had about 10 winners in an entire season? What a hero. Definitely better than O'Brien.

 

[rainbowview]

Quel how are you judging that though ? I don't think she is the best of fillies but I think this is a bad bunch and she is certainly capable of mixing it with the best of them this year (Great Heavens the exception) closely matched with Princess Highway (would have finished in front of her today 100% without interference) and also Shirocco Star - and The Fugue (form with Princess Highway) ??

and now now don't get nasty about Mr Cecil - hero

 

[Quelesprit]

You've answered your own question mate. This crop are average at best and she's in an amongst the best of them but at the end of the day that still only leaves her as a fairly average group one horse.

 

[rainbowview]

Yeah I would agree with that for sure just got confused with

At the top table she's no better than average.

I took that comment as if she wasn't capable of mixing it at the top table with the current bunch (****e)


Funny looking back at the comments "The Fugue is a superstar she beat Twirl on the bridle" I would be confident if Twirl ran in a Group 3 race on her own merit she wouldn't be good enough.

 

[GGW]

Look the mans useless and he knows it himself....

The Independant 21st June 2012

O'Brien was at extravagant pains to abase himself before those Australian critics who had perceived some loss of zest in So You Think.

"We've had him a year and a half and that's how long it has taken me to learn how to train him," he declared. "I'd just like to say sorry to all the Australian people, that I made such a mess of it for so long. We were rightly getting a fair hammering from them but we needed to pull our socks up. I was probably working him too often, too long and too hard. I was killing him by making him grind, but even so he was very competitive."

How many others is he grinding down?

Who would train your horses? O'Brien no takers!

It's the biggest load of **** I've ever heard but the man has to say it. What sounds better to Aussie breeders from Coolmoore's point of view - 'we were training him wrong he is actually the monster you remember' or 'he's just not as good as we all thought and no-one here wants to breed with him over other options as a result'.

 

[rainbowview]

Spot on George

Btw I don't even understand why there is any need for debate. Aidan O'Brien is without doubt one of if not the best trainer in the world.

 

[TopClass]

O'Brien is clearly a very good trainer. Determining who is best is open to debate though.


The issue I have is this: He get the best horses, the most horses, all year, every year.



It's an absolute monopoly. The pedigrees that come through his yard are quite ridiculous. The thing that irks me the most though is campaigning his horses for a breeding operation rather than purely as competitive racehorses, which is why we still haven't and never will see Camelot meet any top 4 year old.


As for So You Think, I don't think AOB messed him up at all. I think he never really knew his best trip, it might be fair to say. But it turned out that he translated to a consistent hig class European middle distance horse, and an exceptional Australian middle distance horse. I think he just fell short of being a great, and little else needed to be said. Even now, looking at Carlton House's array of disappointments, it looks difficult to view SYT's Prince Of Wales victory as anything other than hollow, and easy to see why he was whisked off to stallion before the Eclipse with his reputation in the UK and Ireland probably at its highest since pre Prince Of Wales hype 2011.