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The 2019-2020 season.

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Walsh.i.am, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. Bure budgie

    Bure budgie Well-Known Member

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    Just like the manager
     
    #1001
  2. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    But look at the trophies he has won in four (4) different European countries.

    I have to say that I like him <cheers>
     
    #1002
  3. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Which of the several different Chelsea teams managed by Mourinho are you accusing of being boring Suffolk? I can't imagine you mean the 2004--2005 title winning team which (to quote Wikipedia) "secured Chelsea's first top-flight domestic title in 50 years, setting a string of English football records in the process, including the most points ever achieved in the Premier League (95) and the fewest goals conceded". GF 72, GA 15, GD +57. Nor can I imagine you mean the team that won the title again the following season, with a record of GF 72, GA 22, GD +50. Maybe you meant the title winning team of 2014--2015, which despite scoring 73 goals were outscored by second-placed Man City, though again I can't really imagine you meant that that team were boring. Maybe we can agree that tarring the various different Mourinho Chelsea teams with a single "boring" brush is being somewhat economical with the truth? <laugh>
     
    #1003
  4. JM Fan

    JM Fan Well-Known Member

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    An excellent article by Connor Southwell (aka CS) in today's EDP and I've extracted some of the more salient points - 'Along Come Norwich have been major protagonists in galvanising supporters around the stadium, with co-founder Jon Punt agreeing with Webber's remarks. "So much work has gone on over the last 18 months to get us to a place where supporters can feel like they're actually making a real difference to events on the pitch, but culturally there is still more to do.
    "It would be difficult to replicate the atmosphere levels of the Manchester City game week in, week out, but that has to be the aspiration."
    Punt continued: "In a league where marginal gains will be even more important than last season, if fans can give the players that extra five per cent they need to go on and get results then we all benefit, together
    ."

    https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/city-chief-has-set-new-challenge-1-6322358

    https://www.pinkun.com/norwich-city/norwich-city-needs-fans-not-to-be-complacent-says-stuart-webber-1-6320158
     
    #1004
  5. Bure budgie

    Bure budgie Well-Known Member

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    Can't fault his record Dave , but I just find him an arrogant boring know all.<cheers>
     
    #1005
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  6. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty good myself at being an arrogant, boring know all, but unfortunately, in my case, that's as far as it goes! <laugh>
     
    #1006
  7. JM Fan

    JM Fan Well-Known Member

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    #1007
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  8. Walsh.i.am

    Walsh.i.am Well-Known Member
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  9. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Spot on JMF. I don't always agree with Sutton, but he backs up his argument with clear statistics.

    "In any case, you cannot blame bad results on not having the personnel available if you still just go out and play in your usual attacking style, because surely sticking with it in those circumstances is not a sensible thing to do? If you have a weakened team, then give them more protection. I am a huge fan of expansive football but sometimes you need to try to keep your back four intact - so, tell your full-backs to sit in and play a little more pragmatically."

    This isn't a major change, just a temporary pragmatic adjustment to restore balance to a defensively weakened team. Missing the top two keepers, 3 CBs, 2 DMs means you need to adjust. We didn't and were humiliated at home. As Sutton says:

    "There needs to be some more balance between attack and defence from Farke's point of view, because his side are leaving their attack too much to do. I think the Canaries have enough creativity in their team to compete in the top flight, but you can't ask them to score three goals to win a game - which essentially is what is happening at the moment."

    If we don't make some adjustments to provide cover for the defence and make sure the FBs know their first responsibility is defending, we're in for another hammering at Bournemouth.
     
    #1009
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  10. JM Fan

    JM Fan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Rick. I was just in the process of extracting some of the key points of Sutton's appraisal and they were almost identical to yours.
    IMO, this is the KEY sentence - There needs to be some more balance between attack and defence from Farke's point of view, because his side are leaving their attack too much to do.

    I see it's also been summarised in the EDP - https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwi...-on-norwich-start-to-premier-league-1-6324922
     
    #1010

  11. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    But what really is Sutton suggesting? 'If you have a weakened team, then give them more protection' OK, how with no fit DM's not already employed at CB? 3rd choice keeper. No defensive senior players on the bench.
    He and many others have highlighted that the team wasn't so different to the one that beat Citeh, so then attack was OK as best form or defence. With Tettey gone too, attack is all we have left as near peak personnel. So you get the FB's to sit back, even if they do, do we have the personnel to survive an alamo like duck shoot? Do we then carry any threat? One of the interesting stats was that to Villa's 22 shots we still had 21. On another day the result could have been different. With the right players back it would have been closer. But in this league we are a cat in a league full of dogs, if you pull the cats claws, then what hope do we have? The reality is even hiding under the sofa we get bit a couple of times, but would you rather we meakly take those bites or actually try to still go out and win?
    OK I'm not so one-eyed as to think we could not be a little more judicious with when we send the FB's bombing on , but they must still have license to bomb on, we will I'm afraid only realy improve when we get some numbers back.

    Bah!
     
    #1011
  12. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    Well put GM, I agree much more with you than Sutton, as you say, where is the protection to be found?
     
    #1012
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  13. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Well rather than type it all again, this is what I said on the previous page:

    The strength of this squad lies in possession based attacking football. The injury crisis has certainly compromised that in recent games as we've had to play out from the back less and gamble with long kicks, which clearly hasn't worked, as it doesn't suit our players. Trybull returning could help, but until we have two CBs again we need to strengthen our defence and our ability to play the ball out from the back.

    Playing Lewis inside as part of a three at the back would strengthen both the defence and our ability to play out from the back. Heise could play the Lewis role while Aarons and Leitner would have more freedom to support the attack (though Max needs to remember that defending is his first responsibility). Cantwell and Buendia can also drop back to defend when the ball is lost. It would be a tweak rather than a major change, but one which would make us stronger at the back while also enabling us to play the ball out and get it up to the attack through Leitner as the deep playmaker.

    Bournemouth will attack a lot and our best chance is to counterattack through Pukki, Buendia and Cantwell, with Leitner as the provider.
     
    #1013
  14. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    But we didn't actually adopt an "attack is the best form of defence" approach against Man City, GM. What we did (as DF said we would have to do in his pre-match interview), was accept that this was a game in which we were not going to be able to develop any sort of control through possession, which is what we standardly try to do. Instead, we surrendered possession to City, and focussed on defending our penalty area against attacks through the centre and left and right half spaces, channelling the City threat to the wings. Since numbers were crucial to this, including the full backs staying back and stationed a bit further infield than usual, the entire pattern of our play became different. Far from maintaining our usual open shape that was exposed so cruelly by Villa, we stayed very compact until possession was regained and a counter-attack could be sprung. When we got the opportunity to counter-attack, we did so brilliantly, but it simply isn't what we standardly set out to do. Against Villa we reverted to standard and paid the price.

    Also, while if you just look at numbers, the difference in the two teams (v City and v Villa) doesn't seem great, the mere fact that Byram was replaced by Aarons for the Villa game was hugely significant, because it signalled a reversion to our usual approach. I firmly believe that if we had adopted the same approach to Villa as we did to City, we would not have lost that game.
     
    #1014
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  15. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I hope we use the ManCity tactics at Bournemouth, whether or not we play 3 at the back.
     
    #1015
  16. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    To a large extent I agree with what you've said, but I think to call it just looking to counter attack rather than our standard is not quite true. When we go the ball, we still not only tried to play out from the back as usual but took plenty of chances as usual. One of the sweetest things about the win was that we held true to our attacking principles and rather than hoofing long we still passed it around their press even in our final 3rd.
    you say we surrendered possession, but all sides do that to all superior passing sides, that Farke accepted that we would have less possession is fine, against a side like Citeh its inevitable. It wasn't a concious decision by Farke to give them the ball, he would have loved to keep it more. Like I say we still took plenty of chances/touches when we had it at the back. It was a result of some of this play out from the back that we were suddenly being lauded for. When it works of course we are great and refressing, when it doesn't, naive and relegated.
    I would still say the biggest differences between the citeh game and the Villa one were:

    1] Personnel, Against Citeh we had Tettey in to disrupt and what a game the old boy had. Add to that the more defensively sound Byram and Villa was a different kettle of fish. Couple the fact that Godfrey looked jaded playing through pain and I think Villa cought us at the right time.
    2] Tactical inflexibility, everyone knows what we are setting out to do, this means they can plan for it and consequently we have been undone by agressive high presses in the last 3 games. But this could be an oportunity if we improve our...
    3] Accuracy, the difference between playing it out from the back and dominating Newcastle and beating Citeh vs all our defeats seems to me to be bourne of our own mistakes under pressure in our defensive third. Whether this is the opposition simply being too good and exploiting our unwaivering tactics. Or injury related atrition or a bit of both I'm not sure.
    but our game plan, is totally dependant on maintaining a high level of accuracy in our passing. I think it has been a growing slopiness to that passing that is hurting us.
    Get back our accuracy and the highpress of the oppo means we have space in behind and this is surely what we continue to strive for, why we will keep at it and why we all love Farke's footy.

    Bah!
     
    #1016
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  17. Walsh.i.am

    Walsh.i.am Well-Known Member
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    From what Robbie and the General have said, maybe we'd be better playing Byram ahead of Aarons until some defensive solidity has been ...I was going to say 'restored' - but we haven't had any so far this season <yikes>... achieved. :emoticon-0112-wonde
     
    #1017
  18. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Three comments at random! There's a difference between losing the possession battle and surrendering possession. The latter is a tactical choice, the former a tactical defeat. Contrary to what you say General, DF did indeed make a conscious decision, and actually said he was doing so pre-match! Also, again contrary to what you say, we didn't play out from the back in our usual fashion. We couldn't do that because City, having lost possession, didn't themselves drop back; so we saw very little of our usual pattern whereby our CBs pass the ball back and forth between themselves while slowly advancing up the field. In contrast to that, our playing out from the back took the form of quick rapier thrusts up the touch line, breaking free of City's high press and exposing their back three close to the half-way line. Our standard strategy is to force the opposition back and move them around high up the field, creating overloads until a gap appears. There was very little of that against City. And regarding Tettey, he was indeed immense, in large part because DF's tactical shift and resulting compact shape suited him down to the ground. He excels in the simpler role that setup asks of him (which I see as another reason to adopt a similar strategy more often).
     
    #1018
  19. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    Great debate. I love this!

    Exactly Robbie, I agree with you <yikes>. Against MC we often cleared the ball rather than take the chance of giving it away deep in our own territory. I said after the NC game I hoped we would continue with this more conservative approach until we got some of our injured players back.

    I don't know if this would be the right strategy against a team of big players like Bournemouth who are so good in the air. It could be that Byram is the better choice at RB for this game because he plays his man with the ball closer than Max does thereby making it more difficult for the opponent to put crosses into the box.
     
    #1019
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  20. JM Fan

    JM Fan Well-Known Member

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    Just found these 2 snippets -



     
    #1020

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