Terrorist attack in Berlin

[YappyR]

Lurching from one extreme to another (or avoiding it) seems to be an issue for many countries at the moment. Some are succumbing, some are not. It generally doesn't help to switch so quickly - things creep in under the radar that don't get the scrutiny they deserve and would not be supported by the population if they were looked at properly.

Anyway, let's hope Germany can resolve its issues. Catching the murdering driver would be a start.

I remember back in 2006 during the WC, I travelled from Berlin to Nuremberg by train and that took us through the new route through the old East Germany, past Leipzig. We made a couple of stops along that side. I sat next to some friendly West German folks who were jovial enough on the way there, but some of the local East German types got on who acted as if they owned the train and started to just fill in whatever empty seats there were, and made themselves at home. Until the ticker conductor would come along and then they moved.
After I had made the round trip and got back off at Berlin, there were murmurs from the West Germans, speaking to me in English, about how ever since the Wall came down, the rude East Germans and the old Communist block countries' citizens have flooded the West, and that they don't act properly, such as only sitting in the seat assigned to them on the ticket, but instead sit wherever they want and act as if the State allows them all to do so, still, etc.

I am sure things have improved, but at the time, the Westerners (hilarious as that sounds now) complained that the old Easterners are taking all their jobs and work that used to be on the West side have gone over to the old East side in areas such as Prague etc, and that there will always be animosities in that sense, as the Westerners felt like they were being forced to pay their share to help the old Easterners!

 

[sb_73]

Major attack planned in Melbourne for Christmas Day crushed. Nice one Aussies. This was planned by 5 Australian born men of Lebanese backgrounds.

I am beginning to think that the major difference between us and Germany is that we have better security forces. I suppose we have had a lot more practice. Quite rightly we are not told about all the foiled plots in the U.K, but I'm pretty sure it won't be far short of the 8 attacks, all by 'lone wolves', in Germany.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Berlin suspect shot dead in Milan, obviously made a quick getaway in the confusion immediately after the Berlin attack. Freedom of movement clearly has benefits...

 

[sb_73]

Berlin suspect shot dead in Milan, obviously made a quick getaway in the confusion immediately after the Berlin attack. Freedom of movement clearly has benefits...

.....as does co-operation between police and security forces.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Major attack planned in Melbourne for Christmas Day crushed. Nice one Aussies. This was planned by 5 Australian born men of Lebanese backgrounds.

I am beginning to think that the major difference between us and Germany is that we have better security forces. I suppose we have had a lot more practice. Quite rightly we are not told about all the foiled plots in the U.K, but I'm pretty sure it won't be far short of the 8 attacks, all by 'lone wolves', in Germany.

What is frightening about the Australian example is that the progeny of some Muslim immigrants is more extreme than the parents. There's no gratitude to the country these children have been born into, quite the opposite, there's resentment. They are drawn to an evil sect like ISIS that espouses world Islamic domination and they become a lethal Trojan horse. We have them in the UK, and it must surely be relevant to government immigration policy going forward.

The attacks in Germany gives the lie to the claim that only those countries involved in military action in the Middle East are the targets of Islamic terrorists. ISIS will look for the most vulnerable Western target

 

[Hoops Eternal]

I think it is safe to assume that it's only a matter of time before a plot on our shores eludes our security services and we have our own Berlin, Nice or Paris. Sad times we live in.

 

[Ranger74]

I think it is safe to assume that it's only a matter of time before a plot on our shores eludes our security services and we have our own Berlin, Nice or Paris. Sad times we live in.

Indeed you're right. You have all the liberals who talk about invasion of privacy and too much monitoring who when something happens moan that plod took their eye off the ball as in Germany. I doubt the authorities have time to go snooping after innocents so let them have the power to do as they need or don't criticise when it goes wrong.

 

[colognehornet]

Major attack planned in Melbourne for Christmas Day crushed. Nice one Aussies. This was planned by 5 Australian born men of Lebanese backgrounds.

I am beginning to think that the major difference between us and Germany is that we have better security forces. I suppose we have had a lot more practice. Quite rightly we are not told about all the foiled plots in the U.K, but I'm pretty sure it won't be far short of the 8 attacks, all by 'lone wolves', in Germany.

One of the main differences is that Germany has memories of having once been a police state and has a paranoia about anything which resembles that. Even the normal police presence on the streets is far less than you can expect in England. Another big problem is organization - in Cologne last new years eve the Cologne police were not allowed to enter the main railway station because it was out of their jurisdiction (this area being the responsibility of the Bundespolizei - Federal Police).
There is some criticism of Merkel's open door policy but, I think the majority of Germans know that it was a human reaction to an emergency situation which had developed in the Balkans. Thousands of refugees had arrived in Hungary - it was like a bottleneck, and the Hungarian police were getting trigger happy. Something had to happen, and I, for one, am happy that the Chancellor put human feelings first, before calculating the political costs first. It stands to reason that there will be criminals amongst such a large group of people - but do you refrain from helping a thousand people on the grounds that there may be a criminal amongst them ?

 

[sb_73]

One of the main differences is that Germany has memories of having once been a police state and has a paranoia about anything which resembles that. Even the normal police presence on the streets is far less than you can expect in England. Another big problem is organization - in Cologne last new years eve the Cologne police were not allowed to enter the main railway station because it was out of their jurisdiction (this area being the responsibility of the Bundespolizei - Federal Police).
There is some criticism of Merkel's open door policy but, I think the majority of Germans know that it was a human reaction to an emergency situation which had developed in the Balkans. Thousands of refugees had arrived in Hungary - it was like a bottleneck, and the Hungarian police were getting trigger happy. Something had to happen, and I, for one, am happy that the Chancellor put human feelings first, before calculating the political costs first. It stands to reason that there will be criminals amongst such a large group of people - but do you refrain from helping a thousand people on the grounds that there may be a criminal amongst them ?

Yes, I was reading earlier that combining 'intelligence' and policing organisationally without lots of governance is deeply resisted, because that's what the Gestapo was. Understandable, and I suspect that the German security forces will learn quickly. To be honest, I hadn't thought much about the big concrete barriers you see routinely around large public events in the UK. I think if I had I would have assumed they were to do with traffic control rather than security. Undoubtedly a huge amount of work to protect us is done invisibly to us. Which brings us to Germany's stringent privacy laws, which we have abandoned. There may be a tipping point where potential loss of privacy outweighs potential safety benefits, but I don't think we have reached that point yet. It seems any old hacker can get a peek at your private stuff anyway, so why shouldn't governments join in?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

One of the main differences is that Germany has memories of having once been a police state and has a paranoia about anything which resembles that. Even the normal police presence on the streets is far less than you can expect in England. Another big problem is organization - in Cologne last new years eve the Cologne police were not allowed to enter the main railway station because it was out of their jurisdiction (this area being the responsibility of the Bundespolizei - Federal Police).
There is some criticism of Merkel's open door policy but, I think the majority of Germans know that it was a human reaction to an emergency situation which had developed in the Balkans. Thousands of refugees had arrived in Hungary - it was like a bottleneck, and the Hungarian police were getting trigger happy. Something had to happen, and I, for one, am happy that the Chancellor put human feelings first, before calculating the political costs first. It stands to reason that there will be criminals amongst such a large group of people - but do you refrain from helping a thousand people on the grounds that there may be a criminal amongst them ?

Shouldn't a leader put the safety of its people before all else?

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Most of us will be over the age of 30 and will therefore have lived in police states, even if it was only for a couple of weeks while on holiday. I've never been bothered by the idea that the state wants to know who I am, why I am in their country and what I am doing. I do however resent the idea that every time I search online for something to buy, I get bombarded with ads suggesting other products I might want to buy as well. The official website is a culprit at this and, yes it has had the effect that I never look at it these days unless I am watching highlights or buying match tickets. It may be useful occasionally to have the convenience of Amazon but I don't want some spotty nerd in Silicon Valley prying into every aspect of my life. I suspect that if I were a *****phile or a wannabe terrorist, they would not have any qualms about suggesting relevant sources for me as that would mean that they have succeeded in making me part with cash. On the other hand,the thought of reporting me to the authorities would be the last thing on their minds.

 

[colognehornet]

Shouldn't a leader put the safety of its people before all else?

Not at all costs Goldie. By law refugees must be given a safe haven - of course one of them could be a criminal, others could be so mentally disturbed by their experiences that they are a menace to society - is this an excuse for refusing help to the other 99 %, I don't think so. If the safety of our own people were the only concern then no country, anywhere, would engage in foreign wars or in exporting weapons. Britain goes off and fights the wars following America's lead, and Germany is the 4th largest weapons exporter in the World (together with German firms profitting the most from reconstruction of countries once bombed) - there is little glory in either of these roles, and both endanger our own populations. How many of the bombs which are dropped on Syria had 'made in the USA', or 'made in Germany' on them ?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Not at all costs Goldie. By law refugees must be given a safe haven - of course one of them could be a criminal, others could be so mentally disturbed by their experiences that they are a menace to society - is this an excuse for refusing help to the other 99 %, I don't think so. If the safety of our own people were the only concern then no country, anywhere, would engage in foreign wars or in exporting weapons. Britain goes off and fights the wars following America's lead, and Germany is the 4th largest weapons exporter in the World (together with German firms profitting the most from reconstruction of countries once bombed) - there is little glory in either of these roles, and both endanger our own populations. How many of the bombs which are dropped on Syria had 'made in the USA', or 'made in Germany' on them ?

May I suggest, Cologne, that if you decide to run for elected office, you don't put in your manifesto -

"The safety of the people who elect me is important, but not at all costs...!"

 

[rangercol]

Major attack planned in Melbourne for Christmas Day crushed. Nice one Aussies. This was planned by 5 Australian born men of Lebanese backgrounds.

I am beginning to think that the major difference between us and Germany is that we have better security forces. I suppose we have had a lot more practice. Quite rightly we are not told about all the foiled plots in the U.K, but I'm pretty sure it won't be far short of the 8 attacks, all by 'lone wolves', in Germany.

You're correct. In fact our major advantage is our superior intelligence service, which is second to none.
France and Germany have first class special forces, but their serious crime police are way behind our special branch etc.
You're comment about sharing security info is obviously very important, but we have far more important security connections with the USA, Australia and Canada.
Our security services find it hard to rely on their counterparts from Europe.

 

[colognehornet]

May I suggest, Cologne, that if you decide to run for elected office, you don't put in your manifesto -

"The safety of the people who elect me is important, but not at all costs...!"

Can you suggest any other alternative to what Merkel actually did - there were thousands of refugees building up in Hungary. How they got there is irrelevant - thousands on the road, and thousands in the central station in Budapest. The Hungarian authorities had absolutely no idea how to cope and the emotions were running dangerously high on all sides. What Merkel did was a humanitarian gesture to relieve a dangerous situation. When she said that 'there was no upper limit', she was speaking the truth - how can there be an upper limit when it comes to alleviating human suffering ? As it happens Germany is nowhere close to its limits - the accomodation which has been set aside for refugees was far in excess of the numbers which have come. In practice very few Germans have been inconvenienced in any way by refugees - yes we need to sort out the rotten eggs, and we need a quicker system of doing it. We also need to bring whole families together rather than have 90%, or so, young men with nothing to do and no money. No of course I would not put your comments in my manifesto - these things don't come into manifestoes because they are reactions to unexpected circumstances, which cannot be planned in advance. I could, with one stroke, make life safer for all Germans by banning all cars from the roads but would I do it ?

 

[Stroller]

You're correct. In fact our major advantage is our superior intelligence service, which is second to none.
France and Germany have first class special forces, but their serious crime police are way behind our special branch etc.
You're comment about sharing security info is obviously very important, but we have far more important security connections with the USA, Australia and Canada.
Our security services find it hard to rely on their counterparts from Europe.

Apparently, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Cameron refused to say that he would veto Turkey joining, because it might jeopardise counter-terrorism cooperation with the Turks. He was probably right to do so, but it might have cost him the referendum. Win-win, eh Col?

 

[rangercol]

Apparently, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Cameron refused to say that he would veto Turkey joining, because it might jeopardise counter-terrorism cooperation with the Turks. He was probably right to do so, but it might have cost him the referendum. Win-win, eh Col?

Not sure what you're getting at strolls.
Counter terrorism cooperation is vital with all like minded states.
Some are a lot more reliable than others however.

 

[sb_73]

You're correct. In fact our major advantage is our superior intelligence service, which is second to none.
France and Germany have first class special forces, but their serious crime police are way behind our special branch etc.
You're comment about sharing security info is obviously very important, but we have far more important security connections with the USA, Australia and Canada.
Our security services find it hard to rely on their counterparts from Europe.

I'd like to see the evidence for that comment about reliability Col. Though I can see that the Belgians are all over the place. And French intelligence has not helped them much.

It's interesting that Italy, currently housing nearly 200,000 refugees, has never had a big Islamic terrorist attack. Reading just now that their experience with organised crime is being fully utilised, high levels of high tech surveillance and they make lots of arrests in the planning stages. Doesn't quite fit with the national stereotype, neither does the way two ordinary coppers dealt with the Berlin nutter.

As I write an app that my company insists I have on my phone, called International SOS, has pinged. It usually warns, based on your location, of transport problems, demonstrations to avoid, occasionally health issues. This time it's telling everyone in Western Europe to be extra vigilant because of terrorism. I'm trying to figure out what this means in terms of what I should do. Avoid travel? Avoid public events and crowded spaces? Neither of which I am prepared to do. Deeply unhelpful.

 

[YappyR]

Apparently, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Cameron refused to say that he would veto Turkey joining, because it might jeopardise counter-terrorism cooperation with the Turks. He was probably right to do so, but it might have cost him the referendum. Win-win, eh Col?

http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html#members

 

[rangercol]

I'd like to see the evidence for that comment about reliability Col. Though I can see that the Belgians are all over the place. And French intelligence has not helped them much.

It's interesting that Italy, currently housing nearly 200,000 refugees, has never had a big Islamic terrorist attack. Reading just now that their experience with organised crime is being fully utilised, high levels of high tech surveillance and they make lots of arrests in the planning stages. Doesn't quite fit with the national stereotype, neither does the way two ordinary coppers dealt with the Berlin nutter.

As I write an app that my company insists I have on my phone, called International SOS, has pinged. It usually warns, based on your location, of transport problems, demonstrations to avoid, occasionally health issues. This time it's telling everyone in Western Europe to be extra vigilant because of terrorism. I'm trying to figure out what this means in terms of what I should do. Avoid travel? Avoid public events and crowded spaces? Neither of which I am prepared to do. Deeply unhelpful.

My comment on foreign intelligence services in Europe is based on years of knowledge and comments made by ex members of the intelligence community.

Spot on about Italy. You'll note I didn't include them.

As for what the advice is, one should remain vigilant, try to have an escape route planned out and always try to get away first or else hide if you can.
As far as bullets are concerned, your best (unarmed) defence is distance!