All of your own doing and your clubs own stubborness prevented you from returning quickly. Unfortunately United are seemingly going down the same path but its very early and we can rectify the situation easily. Anyone who thinks clubs just fall away after years of success only knows of English football. Have a look around the world at how the other big clubs deal with slumps. I hope United follow the Munich and Barcelona routes back to the top.
Err nope, you've just won **** all(this season), this is ground zero and yoonited are starting from scratch.
It's not completely from scratch though. They have the best English player ever[SUP]TM[/SUP]- Wayne Rooney. They also have Giggs who is a very good player- and should have at least 10 more seasons left in him.
Technically thats wrong. Technically..... Also..... how are we starting from scratch? FC United started from scratch.... looks to me like we are still the reigning PL champions and have a squad of players who won the last PL title to have been awarded.... So I dont think we are starting from scratch.
Don't think Moyes will be on Giggs's Christmas card list, if he'd brought young Ryan on for the last couple of minutes he would have equalled the all time record for CL appearances.
I made all these points when I was the only Moyes out guy on here. using Liverpool as an example the 'give managers time' theory is torn to shreds. You can even use Uniteds baron run as well because both show that time rarely equals success. How many piles of **** got 3 or 4 years of United or Liverpool? far too many. We need to be ruthless. Thats how Bayern, Barcelona and co do it.
So Moyes can prefix his name with "sir" and claim Fergie's successes as his own? Come on mate you know I meant from scratch under a new manager.
Even using our example doesn't allow time for everyone; Woy! Clearly the wrong guy so we acted (took new owners too mind). I think a manager does need time, they don't always get things right straight away but they can get them very wrong and clearly be the wrong man for the job. Woy was that guy for us, Moyes is the same for you. As much as I don't like Man Utd, I don't want to see you guys follow the Chelsea blueprints. Man utd and Liverpool, perhaps Arsenal too are the last of a dying bread. Big clubs with a massive following that are able to build and sustain their success, none are reliant of a mega rich guy funding their activities.
Most should get a year to prove themselves. Any signs of progress made will work in their favour. however such an epic failure shouldnt be rewarded with more time
Pretty much what we did for years. Each manager that came in looked promising at first bar Woy and Souness, neither of which got as much time as all the others. Roy Evans, Gerard Houllier and Rafa all built good teams that got near the top of the table only to self destruct at some point (Evans got shafted instead). The only odd one is Kenny on his return. He did well and won a cup but spent a ludicrous amount that was deemed unacceptable once fourth was so far out of reach.
Empires fall, big empires usually fall big. Unless you're in a league with only two good teams. You are right UIR, when we left the update both in terms of squad and club too late , you and others took the jump ahead. Our reluctance to admit we were no longer on the right path from top down rather than a blip or squad transition exacerbated the issues and blocked recovery. Well, slightly different circumstances but the same result is threatening. You relied too much on the plans and actions of one man, his success to the very end allowed you all to ignore starting the complete rebuild (not just team) 4 years ago. Weirdly I think Moyes recognised the need and attempted to remove the old emperors creaking set up. Unfortunately for him it was too little too late and the only thing with his limited experience (at that level) he could replace it with was a mid table backroom team. Loyal but naieve. The fact that he was allowed to do it shows there's no leadership set up above him....another legacy of the over dominant old emperor. Put all these serious issues together and it's a daunting restructure ahead. Put that restructure in its environment shows United like we were, a step behind at least 3 possibly four teams. Expenditure without the proper team to plan, identify and incorporate those purchases into a clearly defined vision is simply gambling. Your shareholders won't want that type of gambling. Like us before you (always lol) I predict you will be there or there abouts throughout the possibly decades of stumbling ahead. You may even win some trophies just like we did. Either way, no team will dominate the trophy haul like either of our clubs did before. In fact I believe we now have to always plan for the possibility of years where CL qualification doesn't happen no matter that we had an exceptional team. It will be interesting to see if the more competitive PL and more flux in the team's going through to CL harms English standing in Europe. Will we all keep failing to win the CL because we've ever an eye on fighting to get into it next year?
Well if United do have a " lot of money" then where is it? As Tobes says, spend over £100 million would attract FFP inspection which I'm sure United would not welcome. Can you please explain how you can say " United will take the 4th spot away from Everton next year..." with such certainty in your first paragraph but then state "City and Chelsea have shown that money can't guarantee you a title" in your last paragraph! There is a great difference between generating revenue and building up investment reserves - particularly when you have owners who consistently milk the club whilst doing nothing themselves to help with the debt mountain that they created. At first sight it appears that you may be confusing turnover with profit. United need to build a whole new culture within the club (both on and off the field). The process of identifying those elements of the old culture that that remain effective will not happen overnight and the development of a new unified culture will take even longer. This re-build is not something that can or will happen over night or respond to the bandage of throwing money at it!
Foredeck, I'm not expecting Manchester United to win the league anytime soon- but yeah, I'd expect the to be back in top 4. They're only 7 points adrift of top 4 after 33 games. As much as we love mocking them- (and love the fact they're in 7th)- truth is 4th-7th is pretty tight this year. It wouldn't take much to go 7th to 4th. I also don't want to be so optimistic that United could possibly be this crap again if they tried! When you look at the squads... of those teams in the hunt, forgive me for the expression, but United are probably the biggest underperformers- followed by Spurs. Arsenal and Everton perhaps the biggest over-performers. There is more in reserve for United to move forwards next year with a little bit better play. Moyes isn't getting the best out of his squad at the moment. Their squad has holes- defense is crap... but if you compare them to us 2 years ago- they're in better shape. They're in better position financially to fill those holes than we were two years ago. United generate more money- from all those Asian fans and a larger ground. In terms of money generation they're probably the team in England to be least scared of FFP. They've consistently over the years been amongst the biggest spenders- I've no doubt this summer will be no exception. Plus, isn't FFP averaged over a number of years... £100mill this summer- added to and spread out over 3 years of transfers, won't adjust the average that much. I'm dubious about FFP though- looks like too many ways to get around it. Supposedly City and Chelsea both would fall foul if taken seriously- but are getting around it using bookkeepers to shuffle money around. I've no doubt Utd could do the same. Label buying a £40mill player as local improvement (say he helps weed the parks around old-Trafford) and voila no FFP sanctions. They have to strike this summer though- some of those Asian fans are no doubt looking elsewhere for their glory hunt with Utd doing bad this year... I suspect their number (and thus United's revenue) would fall quite quickly if United had another bad season. Regarding money- money doesn't guarantee a title or success- but it helps push you in the right direction. Enough money and you will eventually win a title. No guarantee in one year... or two... but eventually yes. Same with moving up the league... Yes- QPR managed to suck despite having money- but if they kept spending year after year- they'd eventually be on par with Liverpool.
You still don't get the United double bind when it comes to cash resources. The owners demands are high and the need to keep paying down the debt is critical. Why do you think the squad is in the state that it is? Why has the club only been able to make 1 major signing at a time for the past few seasons? Sure, there is plenty of money sloshing around within the club. However the majority of it is already allocated. As for FFP United also carry by far and away the highest level of corporate debt to balance against the income streams. The new regulations may not yet be totally clear but they are fundamentally directed at the United corporate model. As for United's squad strength then I do have to fundamentally disagree with you. Not only is it unbalanced, it is also both ageing and lacking in quality. Of all of the top 7/8 clubs, United have the poorest squad. Arsenal and Spurs are already in front of United. Now Spurs have underperformed this season and with this years experience behind them should increase the gap to United. Arsenal need some investment but do have the funds (if not the will) to spend. Chelsea, City and ourselves will spend to strengthen. Only Everton look as though they may suffer but I think that they will try their hardest to strengthen. Therefore there is no guarantee that United can improve on this season's performance. We'll see what happens but my experience tells me that an organisation with the transitional problems that United have, done not come out of then very quickly.
Dave - I don't agree that the United model is what FFP is aimed at. United's debt isn't an issue for them as long as they continue to produce the revenue levels required to service it. They currently do so and produce a net surplus i.e a profit. FFP is aimed at the benefactor 'gate crashers' - the likes of Citeh, Chelsea and PSG, who have just been spending at unsustainable levels, with the losses covered by the owners My question about United was how they could spend at the level of the £200m being talked about and not fall foul of the rules in the short term. Their business model can stand a year out of the CL but 2 or 3 would see their revenues drop dramatically as their sponsorship and merchandising revenues fell to reflect their diminishing status. So I can understand why they'd want to spend big this summer to ensure that this didn't happen, but even amortised over 3 or 4 years that still amounts to a huge sum per annum and would hamstring further player investment during that period unless they 'sold to buy' during that period. So, if they do spend big this summer they simply can't afford to get it wrong and therefore on current performance the neutral would want Moyes to be the one spending it. This summer is the most important in 20 years for United imo
Tobes I agree that FFP isn't the most immediate problem that United have. However, it will come into play as revenues fall and the clubs ability to service its debts comes into question. Now they don't have owners who would appear to be prepared to forgo income to help the club and who may wish to cash-in their chips as the family prepare their own positions as they plan for the end of the Malcolm Glazer leadership. Like you I question Moyes's capacity to effectively re-build their side in 1/2 windows - even with an 'open' budget. After the WC asking fees are going to be high. Now unless you are looking for a 'final pay day' why would you join United in the hope that success can be achieved? Why would you play for a 'normal' wage when you already know how much Rooney is getting? Hence for United the premium that they will have to pay is increased over their opponents before they even begin!
