Talking to Letterboxes

Keep believing!

 

I keep ‘the faith’ of a different kind, Mex.

 

We don't all feel like that Andy

 

I think you should be carefull with generalizations such as 'It is the faith', Fez. The vast majority of Islamic women either wear no head covering at all, or simply wear a veil which covers the hair, or most of it. The numbers walking around with a full body covering, or face covering, are very few. In most Islamic countries covering of the hair is optional - in some countries the Burka is forbidden (Morocco), discouraged (Jordan, Egypt) or is forbidden in any official building as is the case in Turkey. Head covering is only compulsory in Iran and some parts of Iraq. It is the norm in Afghanistan - but there is no law on it. In contrast the Burka (or anything resembling it) is only compulsory in Saudi Arabia. I have no problem whatsoever with a simple head covering. The 20th century was really the first time that people took to going around bareheaded - prior to that head covering was the norm, and in temperatures such as those found in Africa or the Arab World you would be a lunatic not to cover your head. The wearing of the Burka appears to be an Arabian thing, not necessarily a Moslem thing (and Arabs only make up 17% of all Moslems) and confined to just a few sects. Actually you are more likely to see it in Bradford or London than in Teheran or Damascus. To take the Burka as being representative of the whole of Islam is like taking one of the Amish people and saying that is 'typical' of Christianity. We do not require that the whole of Christianity answers for nutters such as the Orange Lodge, or some of the Evangelists in the White House - yet we do this with Islam.

 

I would agree with that, cologne.

However, when debating religions, I am constantly drawn back to Hitchens’ remark:
"If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in a quite different world."

‘Why is there this sexist pressure on women to cover themselves?’ and other questions would be redundant, I think.

 

You can hardly go better on this than Karl Marx. "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" Religion is the opiate of the people.

 

In the era of strong health and safety demands is it good for them to wear the Buka/head scarf all the time?

As for Boris making the comments - well its typical him really!

People might agree with him but wouldn't say it in public.

 

This is about Boris staking out a bit more support from a faction within the Tory party in the hope that there will be a leadership election. He has been told to apologise, but if he did what would that be worth as we all know he wouldn't mean it. If he doesn't do so he has defied the PM and made her look even weaker. Withdraw the whip from him and he will take on the role of martyr, He knew exactly what he was stirring up in my opinion.

 

The big whig in Iran has said that in the West there is a sexist pressure on women to uncover themselves, or at least to make themselves attractive to men, and he has a point. All the Koran says on this is that men and women should dress modestly - in fact it is no more explicit than the Bible is on this. However, every country in the Islamic World appears to interpret this differently, implying that it is a cultural, and not a religious thing. What is compulsory in Saudi Arabia, looks odd in Turkey and is forbidden in Morocco.

 

But it’s all about how women dress. Why do the men not cover their faces so that women do not covet them? I would suggest this is a matter of control and perceived ownership.

 

Not courting controversy, cologne, genuinely, but what do you think of Hitchens’ point?

 

I think that there are some Islamic laws regarding the dress of men Andy - regarding things like long sleeves, and trousers. For me it's interesting living so close to a city such as Cologne - the Hijab and the Habit, side by side. Cologne was one of the most important centres of Catholicism north of the Alps and there are still many seminaries here, and convents - so it is not unusual to see nuns wandering around. Their dress is more or less the same as the Hijab (the one without the face covering) yet they are seen as pious, modest, devoted etc. whereas the Moslem woman is seen as oppressed for doing the same.

 

You can court controversy with me Andy - I like it I guess you are referring to Christopher Hitchens ? Why should I give much time to a person who spent most of his life criticizing others rather than developing an alternative ? I am a believer in some kind of creative force, though am not aligned to any of the orthodox religions - the only one I have been really attracted to is Quakerism. If a person really believes in an omnipotent God then it follows that this God could have created us all the same if he/she/it had wanted - he could have made us all Christians, or Moslems or whatever. But he/she/it chose not to - rather diversity was chosen. Unfortunately many so called religious people have developed enough 'religion' to erect barriers but nothing else - whereas real spirituality is about bringing people together, and respecting diversity. If Hitchens wants to criticize this or that religion then he is welcome to do it - but to criticize all faith, and trust only in science to answer, all our questions, to the point of battering me with a smug certainty, is not acceptable. I have a right to 'believe' in the objectively unbelievable if I choose, without having people making fun of me for doing it - just as I accept atheism.

 

As Sam Harris puts it: "Religious tolerance is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance".
The koran clearly and distinctly calls for women to be covered. The burka is basically a full covering tent with a grille, as imposed by ISIL / Taliban. The Niqab is a slit, the sort of thing imposed by Saudi Arabia and what we see a lot of in Arab communities here. Make no mistake, it is a muslim thing overpowering traditional Arabian wear... which varies a lot from UAE to Saudi to Bahrein and so on. A hijab is ostensibly a head scarf, the sort of thing that christian women would be required to wear in orthodoxy... yup, the bible treats women as second class citizens too.

Oddly bojo doesn't seem know the difference between the three. Typical of the muslims to play the victim card, disappointing from Baroness Warsi and Lord Sheikh especially. Islam is an ideology, not a race. Ideas have the right to be challenged and when they are demonstrably absurd then they deserve to be roundly ridiculed. Moreover, and this is what they refuse to accept, that muslims do not have the right not to be offended. Just like "flat earther's", "anti-vaxxers", "geo-centrists", "9/11 and moon landing conspiracists" and every other religion: every religion is an idea.

And you wonder why I don't want to see a "Religion" thread?

 

Sorry Fez - the Hijab (veil) is a traditional, not religious head cover that dates back to ancient civilizations, and is not supported or advocated in the Quran. The Quran admonishes women to dress modestly and cover their breasts and genitals but doesn't say anything about the head. As you say the Hijab has been characteristic of Christian, Jewish and Moslem women for centuries - in fact some sort of head covering was more or less normal for all people up until the 19th century.

 

Well, now you're right but you're not right! The koran is not a stand alone book, the hadiths and surah's need to be considered....

Then the women began to observe Hijab in front of men.
It was narrated that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: May Allah have mercy on the women of the Muhaajireen. When Allah revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning)
"and to draw their Khumur (veils) all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)"
[al-Noor 24:31], they tore their aprons and covered their faces with them.�
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4480)

At the end of the day they justify it. The koran expressly states that the head must be free to utilise the senses (and hair is actually given an exception so as to be visible, and a hijab is never mentioned in the koran), so in that sense a niqab or burka is haram only, apparently, to be usurped by the apparent necessity for "modesty".
So the women are primarily bullied into it? Seems so.
Supposed to be a perfect book! How anyone can "believe" in this nonsense is beyond me.

 

That's because christians get to decide for themselves... islam is submission by definition: comply or die. Okay, so both faiths have an element of that but islam allows for non-compliance to be a capital offence in this life, not the supposed afterlife.

Looks like we've got that religion thread afterall….

 

Hitch, he's da man!

 

Fez - quoting individual passages from Christianity or Islam is pointless. Books and teachings from centuries ago all have too many contradictions to be able to be quoted authoritatively chapter and verse.
The fact that letterboxes are not universal shows that it cannot be a standard requirement of a religion.
The three Abrahamic religions are full of sexism and homophobia, racism and goodness knows what other appalling tenets - not least the hypocrisy of encouraging killing while pretending their god forbids it.
You need go no further than common sense to realise that something that requires women to dress absurdly is plain wrong. It is pure sexism designed to keep women subservient to men.
As you say it is tough if people do not like their ideas and beliefs being challenged as nobody has the right not to be offended. What is wrong is to suggest the people who hold those beliefs are either all the same or somehow inferior. All of us have ideas and beliefs that can be challenged and ridiculed but it gives nobody the right to imply we are lesser people for holding those ideas.

 

The Hadith's and Surahs were written 200 years after the Quran Fez. There are some Islamic groups which observe these and there are also Quran only sects. The fact is that the Burka is worn by only about 5% of all Muslim women, which I am sure you are aware of - the other 95% all believe themselves to be Moslems. Nonetheless the Burka is used in nearly all alarming posters warning of the threat of 'Islamification'. Your argument rests on two potentially flawed assumptions, firstly, that these women are forced to wear Muslim religious clothing and thus need to be 'saved' and, secondly, that these practices conflict with some predefined understanding of ''Western values''. Do they wear this because of social structure, or free choice - these two are often closely related to each other ? Wearing a headscarf should not be directly interpreted as a lack of free will. There could be very wide ranging reasons for this practice, and it is high time we started talking with them on this, as opposed to about them. The contrast is often made between the women of Islam and the so called 'free' women of the West - but reverse this for a minute - are Western women free in their choice of clothing ? or are their choices also governed, to some degree, by cultural-societal norms and expectations ? Are not both Islamic and Western women (and men to some degree) suffering from the ''tyranny of fashion'' ? Why should it be that Muslim women are more coerced into it as opposed to ''Western women'' ?