Subs and missing players

[redruthyella]

I simply don't agree with the facts then, Redruth. Spurs last Wednesday was not unattractive. Neither were our performances against Man City and Chelsea. And that 28 move goal against Sunderland was mesmeric. I'm not an expert, and I would really like to know what 'unattractive' means, because I'm clearly not seeing games in the same way as others. Not being confrontational, but I just don't get it.

I did put on another post that during our run we played some good stuff. And Wednesday night for at least the 1st half, we dictated the game because Tettey was released to make those rampaging runs forward. We scored because initially Russ Martin played the ball along the deck to start the move. Second half it was back to treading on Johnson's toes again. And yesterday he did it from the start. You can't tell me that Pilkington/Bennet aren't under instruction on how to play. They just never take on their man when it is even one to one. It's always pass back to their full back. I have no objections to the CB's hitting it long, most do and passing is not in their armoury or intentions.
I watched Bennet closely yesterday and on more than one occasion there was no-one within 10 yards of him but he looked up to pass. Snodgrass's first intention, no matter where he is, is to run with it especially if there is no player close. Wes does the same but unfortunately he is continually caught in no mans land between Holt and Tettey which is sometimes half the length of the pitch. They play on instinct. That is why they are the flair players in our team.
The look on Holt's face on several occasions together with several arm waving moments, says to me that he is not happy with what is going on around him. During our good run, he was playing out of his skin, despite not scoring, because he had support and was given chances. Now he has to chase another of Russ Martin's launches up the sideline or take a pass from Pilkington who then retreats rather than looking for a return.
Of course I would like to see us stay in the Prem it does normally equate to success. And I think we will. But after watching this club for over 50 years and knowing that for at least 35 of those years, the club has been synonymous with attractive attacking football, the last few weeks have not left me with any real feeling of entertainment or accomplishment other than, well at least we got a point.

 

[Walsh.i.am]

I'd like to think the introduction of Kamara will give extra pace and therefore options - but, if he is under the same 'instructions' as Pilks on how to approach the game tactically,
then it won't really make the slightest bit of difference.

Pilks was much more creative and attacking in his thinking and play last season, I feel -as has been mentioned, that playing this current style and formation doesn't really suit his or E Bennett's, or Holt's all round game and as such, we're not seeing the best of any of the three of them.

 

[Walsh.i.am]

Reasons to be cheerful alert!!

Norwich City LFC ‏@NCFCLadies
First team are hoping to progress to the semi-final of the County Cup today.
Facing Aylsham away 1.30pm KO

And with half an hour gone, NCFCL are 8 (eight) - 0 ahead

 

[CanaryTim70]

Glad someone at last mentions Garrido as he seems to escape under the radar when other players would get critism. His passing at times is very poor and I don't think he adds enough going forward on the left flank. He put Bunn under pressure to sloppily concede the penalty and gave the ball away cheaply, on one occasion when we were having some sustained pressure going forward, to then be under pressure defending a corner moments later. We then seemed to lose our momentum for a bit. I've not been overly impressed with Garrido's performances for a while, but then he's not the only player. As for our overall performances of late, we seem to incapable of stringing many passes together, scrappy in the middle of the park and hoofing the ball clear in defence. I'm surprised at CH's negative tactics, given his spurs footballing pedigree. On a positive note, if we see this season out safely, I do think he'll get us playing good football again, probably just need a bit more quality in the team (will address that in the summer). CH will see us over the line for this season, so job done and a platform to build on.

 

[robbieBB]

....... Pilks was much more creative and attacking in his thinking and play last season, I feel -as has been mentioned, that playing this current style and formation doesn't really suit his or E Bennett's, or Holt's all round game and as such, we're not seeing the best of any of the three of them.

Every single wide player in the Premier League is expected to play a role defensively. Those who don't (like Arshavin at Arsenal) are rightly castigated. If it doesn't come naturally, it has to be learned, and the player has to find a balance between curbing his solely attacking instincts and losing his attacking flair. What you are really saying is that Pilkington and Bennett have found adapting to the system difficult; if so, their days are numbered. They will be replaced in the summer. In reality Bennett is perfectly capable of doing what is required; his problem is that he more comfortable doing it on the right, which happens to be Snodgrass's best position. In so far as there is a problem, it is with Pilkington, and the fact that we lack a genuinely left-sided player who can step in for him. That was a problem last season as well -- Surman played, Lappin played several times, etc. etc., but Pilkington was first choice.

Holt is frustrated, not because of the system, but because the midfield are currently not playing well offensively as a whole. You can see from Hughton's reactions on the touchline that he is as frustrated as Holt. In the first half against Spurs we played with the midfield more advanced, and the difference was clear for all to see. It's when we drop back too deep in defensive mode that the problems start. It's not just us, the Man Utd fans are complaining about the same thing, and blaming Carrick (which tells us that introducing Fox isn't necessarily the answer; he is as Carrick-like as we've got). The answer is to play higher up the pitch and do a better job of keeping possession in midfield. We did that during our unbeaten run; we can do it again.

 

[redruthyella]

Every single wide player in the Premier League is expected to play a role defensively. Those who don't (like Arshavin at Arsenal) are rightly castigated. If it doesn't come naturally, it has to be learned, and the player has to find a balance between curbing his solely attacking instincts and losing his attacking flair. What you are really saying is that Pilkington and Bennett have found adapting to the system difficult; if so, their days are numbered. They will be replaced in the summer. In reality Bennett is perfectly capable of doing what is required; his problem is that he more comfortable doing it on the right, which happens to be Snodgrass's best position. In so far as there is a problem, it is with Pilkington, and the fact that we lack a genuinely left-sided player who can step in for him. That was a problem last season as well -- Surman played, Lappin played several times, etc. etc., but Pilkington was first choice.

Holt is frustrated, not because of the system, but because the midfield are currently not playing well offensively as a whole. You can see from Hughton's reactions on the touchline that he is as frustrated as Holt. In the first half against Spurs we played with the midfield more advanced, and the difference was clear for all to see. It's when we drop back too deep in defensive mode that the problems start. It's not just us, the Man Utd fans are complaining about the same thing, and blaming Carrick (which tells us that introducing Fox isn't necessarily the answer; he is as Carrick-like as we've got). The answer is to play higher up the pitch and do a better job of keeping possession in midfield. We did that during our unbeaten run; we can do it again.

Agree with most of what you say but surely CH must be telling the players to play deep. They do have half time and stoppages to get the message across.

 

[robbieBB]

Agree with most of what you say but surely CH must be telling the players to play deep. They do have half time and stoppages to get the message across.

No, I doubt if he is. Holt's frustration also suggests to me that he expects something different from his team mates, as opposed to that they are following instructions. I just think dropping too deep is a natural reaction and avoiding it requires conscious effort on the part of the entire defence (if some advance and others don't you're in real trouble). It's happening at the moment because the priority was to arrest the losing streak (which we've done). I'm looking for us to improve now.

It will be interesting to see how things go if Hughton does play both Becchio and Holt against Fulham, as he seems to have indicated he intends to do. And who replaces Pilks if he is out (shame on the lad with the international friendlies coming up this week).

 

[redruthyella]

I think it has to be the diamond with E Bennet left oand Tettey on the bench and hopefully Whittaker back to add some attacking flair. I like Rusty but he isn't too hot going forward. I think Whittaker has the nous.

 

[gorlestongirl]

Really enjoying reading these responses; learning alot!

 

[robbieBB]

I think it has to be the diamond with E Bennet left oand Tettey on the bench and hopefully Whittaker back to add some attacking flair. I like Rusty but he isn't too hot going forward. I think Whittaker has the nous.

Yes, we might see that, or something like it. The diamond is one form of 4:4:2 after all. Incidentally, Whittaker is perfectly capable of playing in the midfield; did that for Rangers on occasion. It seems hard to say Russ M isn't too hot going forward, given how he's performed in the past! But I agree that Whittaker and Snodgrass form a good partnership when playing together.

 

[oldcanariesfan]

I'd like to see the diamond tried on Saturday with Bradders at the base, Bennett left and Snodgrass right with Hoolahoops at the tip and Holt and Becchio up front. If is doesn't work and we get overrun in midfield CH can always revert to the "preferred" formation (if he brings his subs on early enough). I'd also like to see Whittaker in - for me Garrido need a rest and perhaps trying Whittaker in the left back position might be an option.

 

[goldeneadie]

Garrido certainly was not at his best yesterday, but some of the passes to him from Bassong left him in deep trouble.

 

[canary-dave]

Garrido certainly was not at his best yesterday, but some of the passes to him from Bassong left him in deep trouble.

There was some sloppy passing at the back for most of the game! It's lucky that QPR can't score atm, we gave them ample opportunity!

 

[robbieBB]

I can't see any experimentation at left back. Whoever plays will be up against Duff for most of the game. Garrido suffered from the midfield playing so deep, as did Russ M. That said, maybe playing week in week out is taking its toll on Garrido. Has Tierney really played that badly when he's been given a game?

 

[Northamptonncfc]

Glad someone at last mentions Garrido as he seems to escape under the radar when other players would get critism. His passing at times is very poor and I don't think he adds enough going forward on the left flank. He put Bunn under pressure to sloppily concede the penalty and gave the ball away cheaply, on one occasion when we were having some sustained pressure going forward, to then be under pressure defending a corner moments later. We then seemed to lose our momentum for a bit. I've not been overly impressed with Garrido's performances for a while, but then he's not the only player. As for our overall performances of late, we seem to incapable of stringing many passes together, scrappy in the middle of the park and hoofing the ball clear in defence. I'm surprised at CH's negative tactics, given his spurs footballing pedigree. On a positive note, if we see this season out safely, I do think he'll get us playing good football again, probably just need a bit more quality in the team (will address that in the summer). CH will see us over the line for this season, so job done and a platform to build on.

Some good points here concerning the passing, there are some players who I feel worried about when they are on the ball it's the same feeling I used to get when Gary Doherty used to get the ball, these players aren't defenders though they are midfielders, most of the time I just want the ball to be with either Snodgrass or Hoolahan. I don't think we're dreadful we could be a lot more neat and tidy people over hitting passes, getting excitable or being lazy it's fixable we need to calm it down a bit and think about what we're doing.

 

[JM Fan]

Yes, if those two chances had fallen to, let's say, Michu, or Defoe, or any of a host of "strikers" including Holty or Becchio, one would have been scored. Likewise, if they had fallen to Mata, or Lampard, or any of a host of attacking midfielders, one would probably have been scored. Question is, what would have been happening at the other end throughout the game?

Good point Robbie, but I think CH needs to change tactics at times, as PL used to do mid game without making any subs. NO!! I don't want PL back, I'd just like to see a variation of tactics and I'm sure the players could do it - think back to Swansea away last season!!!!!

I don't think we're dreadful we could be a lot more neat and tidy people over hitting passes, getting excitable or being lazy it's fixable we need to calm it down a bit and think about what we're doing.

Really sums up what has been wrong these last 2 games and the players need to play the ball from defence, rather than hit hopeful long balls.

 

[carrabuh]

No, I doubt if he is. Holt's frustration also suggests to me that he expects something different from his team mates, as opposed to that they are following instructions. I just think dropping too deep is a natural reaction and avoiding it requires conscious effort on the part of the entire defence (if some advance and others don't you're in real trouble). It's happening at the moment because the priority was to arrest the losing streak (which we've done). I'm looking for us to improve now.

It will be interesting to see how things go if Hughton does play both Becchio and Holt against Fulham, as he seems to have indicated he intends to do. And who replaces Pilks if he is out (shame on the lad with the international friendlies coming up this week).

Its the formation, personnel and instruction which causes us to drop deep.

Neither Johnson or Tettey are known for there passing ability, Pilkington and Bennett are hardly prolific in keeping us in possession either. Thats 3 out of 5 who can can barely string a pass together in a part of the field where passing should take prominance.

Bare in mind these players are also trying to hit a single target under instruction to keep rigid and stop the interchanging of personnel because it encourages space for the opposition. It is no suprise we struggle to create anything.

Against Spurs the players were much closer together, got the ball wide much further up the pitch and passed (not crossed) into the centre far more frequently. There was also alot more feeding the ball through centrally because the movement from the midfield was so much better.

For me, two defensive midfielders sitting still all game is overkill, unnecessary and totally ruining any attacking potential.

I don't see why we should be using it away to rock bottom QPR.

 

[robbieBB]

..... the players need to play the ball from defence, rather than hit hopeful long balls.

As I posted earlier, IMO the problem is defending too deep. If the back four and midfield have more or less merged, with little space between them, it would be suicide to play short passes (unless we had Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Wilshere). The opposition midfield are able to press up and the ball is likely to be lost. So when our midfield drop too deep, the back line has no alternative but to boot it up field.

 

[robbieBB]

Its the formation, personnel and instruction which causes us to drop deep.

The formation and players on Saturday were the same as played against Spurs. I doubt very much that there was much difference in the instructions either. You could see from Hughton's reactions on the touchline that the team were NOT following his instructions. Also, I don't see how you can say that Johnson "sits still" all game. Far from it. He is box to box all game.

 

[YellowLittle]

I have to say, I would have taken a point before the match. Any away point for us is pretty good, especially against QPR who have the belief they can stay up, probably have the players now and also have a good manager. I think it was a very good point and would take that all day long. If we'd have lost I would have been worried.

I agree we are one dimensional attacking wise but I just don't think we have the players to change it, whilst still being able to stay solid at the back. We used to attack in numbers with Lambert, now we are more rigid as a unit so we can't do that and we don't have the calibre of attacking players to be able to compensate for that at the moment. I know January has just gone but paying over the odds for players is not a good idea. We just have to be patient, and if we stay up this year, which I think we will, I think it'll only get better.