Stoke v Kiev - Post-Game Thoughts

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The Welsh Mourinho

The Welsh Mourinho

Member
Feb 1, 2011
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  • I thought Kiev's ball retention was excellent, they respected possession and repeatedly took the sting out of our play by knocking the ball around for a couple of minutes - ALMOST a perfect away display. However, it's not just Stoke who have problems keeping the ball against continental opposition - many English clubs do, as well as the national side. It's a disease that we'd do well to get rid of as a nation with lofty ambitions, but as long as we (Stoke) are getting results, I won't complain too much.

  • Many people moan on here that we don't keep the ball well enough, which I wholeheartedly agree with. However, Salif came in tonight and I don't remember him wasting a pass, yet he then gets criticised for not being direct enough! :lipsrsealed: I know his passing range is limited and slows our play down, but I thought both him and Palacios passed the ball around quite nicely and had similar games - both too slow to get back into position (due to lack of fitness), but you could tell they've both played at the highest level with the way they respected the football and maintained possession.

  • Defensively, I thought Upson and Huth were generally good, especially as they had little protection at times from Diao and Palacios. Shotton was good in possession but gets beaten too easily, and Higgy (for me) looks like a guy who's lacking games under his belt (stating the obvious I know).

  • Pennant - apart from his assist I thought he was poor again. He was running at players again, which is encouraging, but his delivery in general is awful. On the other side, Rory offered little going forward (as usual) but at least this means Matty will hopefelly be firing on all cylinders at Goodison on Sunday (where I expect it will be Whelan and Whitehead in the middle).

  • Up front, having said above that I thought we passed the ball around quite well tonight, we actually looked much better when we started being more direct and getting bodies (namely Fuller and Pennant) in and around Kenwyne and Jerome to support them. Too often in the first half they were isolated, but second half Jerome came into his own and obviously Kenwyne bagged his goal from Pennant's one good delivery. Fuller also made a difference with his ability to draw two or three defenders to him to open up space for others, while Walters did a good harrying job in the last ten minutes or so.

Overall, our performance wasn't great but at least we got the point that means we're through to the knockout stages (a feat that no other Stoke side in our history has ever achieved.) A draw was probably just a fair result (with Kiev edging it), but it seems like the gloom over recent results has been lifted somewhat and we can go to Goodison with renewed confidence (oh yeh, it's an away game..........:sad:).
 
The Welsh M
I must have been at a different game mate, Waddo also I think?
IF there isn't a massive improvement on Sunday I think we're fecked and another 3pts will be down the swany river. Everton will murder us. NOT GREAT.. your NOT kidding.

But hey, we've qualified so I won't complain too much, I've already done that on the other thread.

I paid to watch that and I ain't happy with what I saw, first half anyway was terrible in fact it was complete and utter ****.
2nd half was better but, not much. We scored with the ONE decent cross by Pennant. And I DID feel sorry for Jones/Jerome having to track back to help out the midfield. At times I thought they WERE our midfield. Take a looksee at the possesion, shots on target and we were the home team?
 
Pottermouth 328 said:
The Welsh M
I must have been at a different game mate, Waddo also I think?
IF there isn't a massive improvement on Sunday I think we're fecked and another 3pts will be down the swany river. Everton will murder us. NOT GREAT.. your NOT kidding.

But hey, we've qualified so I won't complain too much, I've already done that on the other thread.

I paid to watch that and I ain't happy with what I saw, first half anyway was terrible in fact it was complete and utter ****.
2nd half was better but, not much. We scored with the ONE decent cross by Pennant. And I DID feel sorry for Jones/Jerome having to track back to help out the midfield. At times I thought they WERE our midfield. Take a looksee at the possesion, shots on target and we were the home team?
Click to expand...

Like I say Potts our performance wasn't great, poor in fact, and you've got every right to have a grumble about aspects tonight's game. However, I'm just trying to pick if few of the positives out of it.

Seeing as we were playing a half-fit Palacios and Higgy, and a God-knows-how-fit-he-is Diao I think we did alright. Make no mistake, Kiev are an excellent side and I think they're unbeaten in their domestic League and have conceded only three goals (those stats are from ITV, so if the're wrong don't lynch me).

If we play like that at Goodison, I agree we'll get nothing. However we'll have the likes of Crouch, Whelan, Shawcross and Etherington all starting to I'd wager the starting XI will be an improved one from the Kiev game - we still won't win the game, I'm just trying to point out that seeing as we had a few players out there tonight who are nowhere near full fitness, I thought we did ok and it was mission accomplished.
 
We got the point we required to qualify so I won't complain about that. I attended the match myself last night and I summarise as follows:
Kiev tore us apart in the first half by playing the ball quickly out of defence and counter attacking with pace and skill and it was no surprise when they scored. We were awful and we gave Kiev far too much space to play the ball around. Delap was very poor and Higgy needs more games. Those two + Daio on the left side!!! Ithought WP used the ball well but he did not look fully fit IMO. Pennant looked a bit disinterested at times and I thought Shotton was poor, especially defensively.

Second half we did improve by pushing forward more and I also think Kiev stood back compared to the first half and did not counter attack us as much. Fuller made a difference and Jerome showed pace enthusiasm but I honestly thought we would not score, but thankfully Jones did the business. Overall we got the point but we lack pace and are rather negative
 
Anyone (under no pressure) should be able to pass a bell sideways - which is what Diao does. What about the yards and yards of spave right in front of him, that he refused to venture into?
I thought that Pennant was easily our best player last night - as usual having to pick the ball up 10 yards outside our box and go 50 yards towards goal while the slowest midfield I have EVER seen struggled to get past the half way line.
At laest Shotton made the odd overlapping run.
The point was enough, but Kiev are not what they were - they couldn't even beat Tel Aviv for gods sake.
Stoke play like that on Sunday, well we all know what the outcome will be.
We actually spent £3m on a Uraguayan player of the year, to play in the role that Diao occupied - we will never know if Arisemendi could cut the mustard, because the Right Honourable Member for Newport can not see past his favourites.
It was not agood performance - and yet again the unedifying sight of Stoke having a free kick on the edge of the Kiev box with 2 minutes to go, committing no one forward and playing the ball back to the half way line - how stupid would that have looked if not for Bego's brilliant save?
I am sorry, but TP can ask me to look at what we have achieved all he likes, it is because of PC's money - a half decent manager would have us comfortably in the top 10, not 4 points above managerless Sunderland!
 
Morning,
It seems churlish to complain after we have qualified for the KO stages, so all I will says is; I am glad that I did not pay good (or bad for that matter) money to watch THAT!!

I expect it was bitterly cold as well, Kiev should be used to that though!

Jose mentioned Pulis's least favoured four letter word - PACE, just wish we had some!!

I thought that their Yarmalenko (SP) looked a useful player - just wondering if he is on anybody's radar?

As for Everton hmmmm
 
The Welsh M...
It wasn't a dig a you mate far from it. And I took into account that Kiev were a half decent side too! They certainly are not the team I remember a few seasons back.
It was just so bloody negative first half. Palacios, I'll forgive him because he isn't fit yet but he still did OK. Higgy no where near fit. Diao enough said he's useless.
We did enough to get through but that's all.
Bath Stokie.. I am miserable because I was freezing my nuts off, had nothing to shout about first half and I certainly will NOT be going to Istanbul.
As for my Waddo scrap book, at least I can look back and say. We had some very good ballplayers then.

What about today's midfielders? Not scarpbook material.. more crapbook. Whelan might make a difference on Sunday IF Palacios is playing with him and not Diao or Delap. Which, is why I won't be going to Goodison Park either.

The Welsh M..
I've also had a re-think about Pennant too! He was marked by two player's most of the night but like Jones and Pennant he had to come into his own half far too often to get the ball. When he did attack them there was litte or not support because our midfieders as someone above said... played it sideways or backwards.

Strange how that when Fuller and Walters came on we at least looked *interested" in trying to attack Kiev before then not much happened to exite me but maybe I'm asking too much sorry if I am but I wanted to see us trying to win that game, or at least have a go and attack from the start. Not settle for a pt before a ball was kicked.
T.P. picked a team to get a pt and I was bored stupid, if that's being miserable so be it. IF NOT for Begovic's world class save, we would not have qualified yet!

We're through now and i'm pleased for Stoke City F.C. Just didn't like what I saw last night. IF you are happy with that fair enough.<ok>
 
Bath,
You are right -I am miserable. How hard is it for anyone to realise that if your forward players are constantly outnumbered (due to the lack of midfield support) in the ratio of 2:1, then you are unlikely to score too many goals?
How hard is it to undertsand that if your midfield and defense do not put pressure on the ball but stand in two banks of four, then teams who are comfortable on the ball will eventually pass their way through you?
Our away form in the PL is as rancid as it is, because the Manger believes that our Europa League performances away are the model to work on. Split, Thun ,Tel Aviv and even Kiev in Dianmo struggled to mount any meaningful efforts on goal - the moment teams really apply pressure (as the PL teams do in their home games) we cave in quicker than a chocolate tea pot. Why, because the midfield cant hold or carry the ball forward, cant relieve the pressure we are put under, and never support the strikers.
No, thanks but you are right, I will not venture to Besiktas.
 
Remember when we needed the point at home V Leicester. Awful game, but we got the point and we're still here now... Kebab anyone!?!:emoticon-0103-cool:
 
Surprisingly enough I agree with many of the sentiments on this thread. First half, when we tried to play more patient carpet football was very tedious and we only looked like a proper team when we started playing to Kenwyne's strengths and got bodies forward.

As for Whelan Stokielad, he's got to be better than the apparantly useless Diao, hasn't he? I can only see it being two from Rory/Whelan/Woody in midfield at Goodison, and while Whelan is inconsistent- when he's good, he is a very tidy player and uses the ball better than any of our other midfilders.

As for not going to Besiktas, that's a given for me too. I think it's pretty obvious that the match is a dead rubber for us now - we're through, and while I'd rather us get a draw and top the group, it's important to keep players fresh for the League.

Also, Swevyhoof you say:

Swervyhoof said:
the unedifying sight of Stoke having a free kick on the edge of the Kiev box with 2 minutes to go, committing no one forward and playing the ball back to the half way line - how stupid would that have looked if not for Bego's brilliant save?
Click to expand...

Probably would've looked even more silly if we'd piled bodies forward and conceded on the counter-attack, where you yourself admitted they were very dangerous. Then again, I can't believe I'm arguing about a measly free-kick after the club has qualified for the knockout stages of European competition for the first time in it's history. That fact appears to be lost on some people.
 
My thoughts on the game (sorry I didn't make it to the Harvester, it was fairly tight just getting to the ground in time for kick-off)

Begs: Didn't do much wrong, great save near the end


Higgy: No attacking threat at all, not the worst at the back

Upson: I never really noticed him except his own goal. I suppose that means he wasn't making any catastrophic mistakes, but it means he wasn't winning any great tackles or headers either

Huth: Solid enough. The midfield weren't giving the centre backs much cover, so he looked quite exposed at times. Good in the air all game.

Shotton: The kid has potential. He made a couple of great tackles, and was definitely better than Higgy at getting forwards. Had to be covered for by other defenders at times though. I think he'll be really good with a bit of experience.

Pennant: Played alright, especially when you consider he didn't have too much support. His final ball and set pieces were, on the whole, poor.

Palacios: He's not sharp at the moment, but you can see he has talent. He played as many shocking balls as brilliant ones, and looked a little easy for Kiev to play through at times. I think he has to be starting once he gets back to match fitness. I can kind of see why Pulis hasn't been playing him in the PL to date though.

Diao: I had hoped he'd never pull on a Stoke shirt again. He tries, but he's just no good. We looked so much better when Fuller came on, but I think we would have even if we hadn't brought on a sub!

Delap: Not a left winger. Not any sort of a winger. Surely Tom Soares couldn't have been worse on the left than Rory. His throws were poor last night as well. Disappointed!

Jerome: Worked really hard, and in the first half, looked like our best chance of making something happen.

Jones: Worked harder than I've seen him do in a while, although that's not saying much! Did his job pretty well though, won lots of headers, used his muscle, and a super goal.

Fuller: Looked like making things happen when he came on, but he still needs to learn how to pass the ball (not that he had much support)

Walters: Didn't have the time to do much, right or wrong.


So essentially, we played a weakened team, played badly in the first half, not so badly in the second. And Diao should never be allowed near a football pitch again so long as he lives!
 
Hi Welsh M,
Yes we have qualified, and as Bath says, the Leicester game when we achieved promotion was'nt the best - although Carlo Nash pulled the save of the game out of the hat in the last 5 minutes then, as TP stuck to his drop every body into defense philosophy. Four years later (and £93m) we still adopt the same approach, which is one of fear about what teams can do to us, not what we can do to them.
I do appreciate the Europa League, as being something different, but do any of us seriously think any of our opponenets would finish higher than 12th in the Prem?
Also I ask of the manager is that he actually sets out to win a game, by playing off the front foot - hell, he's got a squad with which to do it, if he would just move his tactics out of the dark ages!
W
 
Swervyhoof said:
Hi Welsh M,
Yes we have qualified, and as Bath says, the Leicester game when we achieved promotion was'nt the best - although Carlo Nash pulled the save of the game out of the hat in the last 5 minutes then, as TP stuck to his drop every body into defense philosophy. Four years later (and £93m) we still adopt the same approach, which is one of fear about what teams can do to us, not what we can do to them.
I do appreciate the Europa League, as being something different, but do any of us seriously think any of our opponenets would finish higher than 12th in the Prem?
Also I ask of the manager is that he actually sets out to win a game, by playing off the front foot - hell, he's got a squad with which to do it, if he would just move his tactics out of the dark ages!
W
Click to expand...

spot on
 
Well i fell asleep about 6.30-6.45 & did not wake up till 11.

Apparently i missed **** all (performance wise), but well done to everyone connected with SCFC for our fine Euro adventure.

Long may it continue.
 
Only just been able to get on here, as I didn't get back until 20 to 11 and was feeling tired and lousy so decided to leave it until now, when I'm still feeling tired and lousy!

Thought the first half was as bad, if not worse than the Newcastle 1st half. They were toying with us, walking past our players like they weren't there and were controlling game with ease. They had a bit of luck with the goal but they deserved it frankly. They played some really neat football at a good tempo. The midfield were very slow, especially Diao. Never seen a Pulis game with such a slow tempo. Lucky to not go in at half time more than 1 down.

Pulis clearly got into them at half time but I still think Kiev started the better in the 2nd half. We then got into them, started getting crosses in, Jermaine and Palacios were unlucky not to score. I thought the Kiev manager dropped a clanger taking Shevchenko off, as I thought he was controlling the game and working very hard. Thought we were much the better team after that, then just when Pulis was about to take Jermaine and Kenwyne off, they combined beautifully to score the equaliser. Then in the 2nd minute of injury time, Asmir pulled off a world class save. How he got there I do not know.

Individual performances. Thought the defence were solid enough. Shotton looked decent defensively, and wasn't afraid to take players on and got in some good positions, shame he can't really cross. Upson and Huth were solid and did their jobs, Higgy was decent. Pennant was a mixed bag. His work rate was a lot better, he tracked back many times, but he wasted some great opportunities to get the ball into the box but luckily he got one right. Palacios looked good at times and at times he also showed that he isn't match sharp just yet I don't think but 90 minutes will do him and his confidence a world of good. His passing at times was quite neat as well. Diao was poor in the first half I thought, improved a great deal in the 2nd half until he was taken off. Rory looked tired to me, not great on the left but that's expected, did better when he was put inside. Jones started well enough, closing down players for the first 10 minutes. Then his laziness of last winter came to surface as he barely ran, wasn't jumping for anything and Jerome was having to work overtime making up the running Jones wasn't doing. He improved in the last 10-15 minutes that he was on the field and scored the vital equaliser. I thought Jerome was superb. Ran himself ragged, was direct and was the only player in the first half running off the ball and causing the Kiev defence anything like problems. Even when he was moved over to the left, he still caused the Kiev defence problems and did some great tracking back as well. He really needs to play more, especially away from home, where we struggle for outlets, his pace will help us keep the ball better away from home.

Just a comment on the referee and the Kiev players' antics. Any challenge that we did, whether it was soft or hard, they crumpled in a heap on the floor like they'd been hit with a sniper bullet. The referee was giving them free kicks for challenges that were barely shoulder to shoulder they were that soft.

My Man of the Match: Jerome
 
Well My Thoughts on last night.

Shame I did not manage to locate Potts or Peadar in the Harvesters. No Ricc not a dating site!!!! However I did manage a Pedigree pint with PasstheOatackes!


I have only read a couple of posts and I agree we were really poor in the first half and Kiev could have been in front by more than a single goal.
In the second half, Yes we improved but we really got going when Salif was subbed. At that time that got the biggest cheer. I sit 6 rows behind TP and all around supporters were applauding either Salif coming off or the fact we now might achieve something going forward.

I thought that Jerome was a different player playing in midfield. He was tracking back well and passing the ball well.

The back four I thought did well and i did not realise that it was an own goal.

Wilson Palacios IMHO did well in the first half but faded in the second half.

Pennant was given the ball all the time in the first half and Shotts tried to influence the game by assisting. Shotts did some really good things but also some poor passing as his head was down. This is not being negative on him and I do think that he can improve immensely. On Pennant I wish he would use his pace to be beat people and create space. It was a great compliment to him that there were two or three players on him very quickly every time he gets the ball. For that reason I think it is essential that either Shotts or Wilks plays right back to assist him and not leave him all ion his own and getting pissed off!!!!

Up front I thought that the only good thing KJ did was score the goal! To be blunt he sauntered around in the first half looking like a little boy with a sulk on. Shoot me down if you wish!

All in all a great point last night but would be better if we had won if TP had selcted our vest team which is IMHO: Begovic Wilko Shawcross Upson Wilson, Pennant Whelan Palacios, Etherington, Walters, Crouch. Subs Shotton, Huth, Whitehead, Jerome, Walters, Delap. I wish that TP had selected a stronger team.

Got home at 00:45 so had plenty of time to consider the game:

I know I have had a few drinks following the Euro 2012 draw but hope this does not upset you all
 
I'd have Huth in that team instead of Upson, but other than that, I agree with you.

The draw could have gone a lot better for Ireland, but I think we can sneak a result against Croatia, then hopefully draw with Italy, and hope the rest of the results go our way, and we don't lose too badly to Spain!
 
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