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YorkieLancsHampyLondoner said:
The two goals down thing happened a couple of times but it wasn’t a characteristic of Hurst’s side. The characteristic was generally competing with the opposition but creating only one or two clear cut opportunities in a game.

We can’t say whether Hurst could have built on that or not but what we can say is that we couldn’t have done any worse than appointing Lambert.
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Hurst categorically proved to be a disaster, undoing his mess will take time.

Lambert DOES need a win though- and perhaps I’m not on his back yet as simply Hurst was soooo painful I’m happy to see the back.

Make no mistake though re Lambert, if he doesn’t fill a couple of the glaring gaps, and results continue to be pants under him come late February I will be on his back.

I didn’t like Lambert bringing everyone back for set pieces at Reading- invites pressure.
I also think he’s being far too open / naive given the defense we have.

Time for pretty football is over this season- they need to bloody dig in and get a first clean sheet v 11 of the season....
 
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I don't think it's a case of rewriting Hurst's legacy. Results alone probably justified it, if there was discord and behind the scenes issues too then sacking becomes a no brainer. However, Lambert was brought in to make a better fist of fighting relegation with this set of professional football players. (I am pretty confident that Hurst was looking longingly towards January too) His methods have led to worse results than Hurst. Against clubs fighting promotion and relegation. Therefore questioning Lambert's appointment is valid.

As Nuggets points out though true blame lies higher up the chain and further back in the timeline. Both Hurst and Lambert were/are fighting uphill battles. Millwall also collapsed after McCarthy, so, including us, 100 per cent of McCarthy club legacies are collapses. I think that shows a short termist do the minimum attitude that meshed so well with Evan's approach to investment that even if pep came in afterwards then we would be in this sort of position. There wasn't a whole lot of natural footballing ability left to work with. The mistake Hurst made was going back on his promise to work with what he had and attempt to revolutionise the squad in one window.

I'm intrigued to see who the targets are in January.
Premier League rejects or experienced journeymen to act as short term plasters... Again.
Or, a continuation of the plan to build a squad of footballers that are either at the peak or on an upward curve. Judging by where we are in the table this is now a harder sell.

In all probability neither approach will save us from a league 1 season or 10, so I hope we see some evidence of long term recovery planning if Evan's and Lambert are planning to stick around.
 
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That's a spot on post Nuggets, and I think you're right about how quickly people forget about how devoid of ideas and to put it quite bluntly how boring we were to watch, in fact it wasn't far removed from MMs last days.
Do I think PL can save from relegation? No I don't it's a failed managers failed squad, but I do think it would have been different if PL had been engaged from the start with the players he wanted to keep plus some new faces, lets face it only Pennington has been a success out of Hursts loan players, and none of Hursts permanent signings have managed to attain Championship standard on a regular basis, if that's not a damning indictment of Hursts tenure I don't know what is which is why we find ourselves in this lousy situation.
 
Good post Mike - must confess to being very 5050 with Lambert pre arrival but like how he’s gone about everything bar results so far!

Agree, Hurst would have been looking forward to January too- but he was far too naive trying to do three transfer windows in one. Really should have signed 2/3 experienced pros in there - no issue at all trying lower leagues, however entirely lower leagues plus loanees?! No. Poor. Not one of the loanees is stand out class either. No Fraser / Lawrence etc. Graham beyond a bad “punt”

We desperately need some committed tried and tested players - Richie Welles’s type. Didn’t get the juices flowing but very decent for us.

Over to Evans really re January- what’s the ambition Marcus?? I think with tv plus radio income dropping from 8 to 1.5 mill, we may be semi surprised at the standard of a couple of loanees.

Lambert surely has contacts/ friends in the game??
 
Reliance on the outstanding loan player is very indicative of the one season at a time, squeeze eveeything out of what you have, approach throughout the McCarthy years that has proved to be unsustainable to keep up for the next manager. (Fergusons last few seasons at Manchester United can also be levelled with this critism, planning for the future had gone out the window so there wasnt much of a foundation for Moyes to build on).

The point being I'm not too disappointed we don't have one, the intention is/was to build a squad which could grow together over a couple of seasons, not pass to a player who won't be here next season and let him sort us out. And then look for another player to do that in a different way next year.

It's just a shame that the squad we have has started construction well below championship level, whether we can keep them together post relegation or are starting from scratch again next year is yet to be seen.
 
fieldmarshall said:
That's a spot on post Nuggets, and I think you're right about how quickly people forget about how devoid of ideas and to put it quite bluntly how boring we were to watch, in fact it wasn't far removed from MMs last days.
Do I think PL can save from relegation? No I don't it's a failed managers failed squad, but I do think it would have been different if PL had been engaged from the start with the players he wanted to keep plus some new faces, lets face it only Pennington has been a success out of Hursts loan players, and none of Hursts permanent signings have managed to attain Championship standard on a regular basis, if that's not a damning indictment of Hursts tenure I don't know what is which is why we find ourselves in this lousy situation.
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Having made mistake after mistake what worries me now is that we keep on sleep walking for another year or two under the false pretences that Lambert can do anything. He can’t.
 
Unfortunately, I think early reports that we are planning to throw £10m in the window next month are looking wide of the mark. As the accounts show, we don’t have much money and we have an owner who could invest millions if he wanted, but he won’t because he’s looking to sell the club. The fact that we comply with FFP, and the whole FFP argument is devoid now that other clubs in this division are breaking those rules and not facing any punishment, has not occurred to our owner. Arguably spending £10m only to go down will exacerbate the situation, but we need to do something. Lambert will possibly be limited to loans, as he is sending back so many of the failed loanees like Graham and Edun, which haven’t worked out. If Crouch and Charlie Adam are the answer, we should be doubly worried about this club’s future.

As Mike says, short-term fixes and plasters will disguise the unfortunate reality that this underinvested squad isn’t good enough for this level and simply prolong our decline. Hampy made a good point that clubs of our stature typically bounce back from relegation. Unfortunately, as discussed elsewhere, do we have confidence that this team with our budget will prosper in division three? And unlike the sides like Southampton, Norwich, and Wigan who have bounced back, they benefited from fairly recent Premier League experience and income. We’ve been out the top flight for almost two decades and don’t look capable of making a swift return. Several years in division three may see more wins then we’ve recently been accustomed to, but what a collapse for this once great club. Any longer than a year in League One and attendances will continue to fall. The whole club reeks of rot and decline, it needs a root and branch reform starting with this hapless owner.
 
Nuggets said:
Unfortunately, I think early reports that we are planning to throw £10m in the window next month are looking wide of the mark. As the accounts show, we don’t have much money and we have an owner who could invest millions if he wanted, but he won’t because he’s looking to sell the club. The fact that we comply with FFP, and the whole FFP argument is devoid now that other clubs in this division are breaking those rules and not facing any punishment, has not occurred to our owner. Arguably spending £10m only to go down will exacerbate the situation, but we need to do something. Lambert will possibly be limited to loans, as he is sending back so many of the failed loanees like Graham and Edun, which haven’t worked out. If Crouch and Charlie Adam are the answer, we should be doubly worried about this club’s future.

As Mike says, short-term fixes and plasters will disguise the unfortunate reality that this underinvested squad isn’t good enough for this level and simply prolong our decline. Hampy made a good point that clubs of our stature typically bounce back from relegation. Unfortunately, as discussed elsewhere, do we have confidence that this team with our budget will prosper in division three? And unlike the sides like Southampton, Norwich, and Wigan who have bounced back, they benefited from fairly recent Premier League experience and income. We’ve been out the top flight for almost two decades and don’t look capable of making a swift return. Several years in division three may see more wins then we’ve recently been accustomed to, but what a collapse for this once great club. Any longer than a year in League One and attendances will continue to fall. The whole club reeks of rot and decline, it needs a root and branch reform starting with this hapless owner.
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The drop in quality is enournous and we have some decent players who would be top League One players. Unless there is a fire sale in January we will get a play off place or better next season. Lambert or whoever.
 
It's a bit too early to write Lambert off after such a short time of taking over a sub standard squad from a sub standard manager, you may be right of course but it's a 50 / 50 shout either way so not exactly earthshattering.
 
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fieldmarshall said:
It's a bit too early to write Lambert off after such a short time of taking over a sub standard squad from a sub standard manager, you may be right of course but it's a 50 / 50 shout either way so not exactly earthshattering.
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You wrote Hurst off after a shorter amount of time who took over a sub standard squad from a sub standard manager also. There is no way Lambert will do anything at Town.
 
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My concern is that if Lambert is such a better man manager/tactician than Hurst he should be getting better results from working with the (albeit substandard) squad of players available which he clearly isn't.

We seem to be reversing the situation from last year where we were comfortably mid table but playing dire football to the present attempts at playing our way out when what's really needed is to dig out ugly wins wherever possible.

I know that sounds as if I'm being contrary but I'm not the only one here who is open to that accusation.I did,however,frequently say that I would settle for mid table mediocracy if we did it in a more entertaining way-looks like I wanted to have my cake and eat it too-greedy me!
 
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YorkieLancsHampyLondoner said:
The drop in quality is enournous and we have some decent players who would be top League One players. Unless there is a fire sale in January we will get a play off place or better next season. Lambert or whoever.
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Afraid going to disagree with you here - not for the sake of it being Hampy, lets argue with him - just see it from a slightly different angle -

https://www.twtd.co.uk/ipswich-town-news/34983/town-announce-�5.2m-pre-tax-loss

https://www.transfermarkt.com/ipswich-town/kader/verein/677

Article 1- finances. This season, in the championship we lost £5.2 million. In league 1, we would lose an extra £6.5 mill roughly from tv + media ( championship check the figures, £8 mill, league 1 is nowhere near that - that's a massive loss of income.

Secondly, we would surely lose income from gate receipts - I actually think our average attendance may not be too dissimilar from this season, however tickets would surely cost less so that's more revenue we'd be down on.

Clearly next summer we'll get the Waghorn / Garner and maybe some Webster top ups, but it's still at present IF we dropped going to be a loss of OVER £10 million. That's absolutely scary.

Article 2 - shows contract expiry. So a few of these would surely go - which does help the wage bill straight off the bat. Assuming the wage bill WOULD come down, but not substantially I don't feel from the £18 million ( how in gods name is our wage bill this ) Of the out of players out of contract,,, who would we retain? Maybe a couple would be offered terms - however, how many would accept likely reduced terms?

We usually sell assets in the summer - surely time to sell Bart, however I doubt a massive fee now. Perhaps £1.5 mill.

Bart aside - who do we have who could reach good £££? Maybe due to age / promise Downes / Dozzell / Lankaster. Honestly don't know. English players go for quite a bit - so perhaps we'd sell a couple of these which could help the books be balanced nicely.

As for what we'd be left with - a squad torn ripped to pieces of confidence.....

I mean, top of my head PERHAPS a team of ( current players we have, pointless to pretend X Y Z joining )

Gerken

Emmaneul / Nsiala / Chambers / Kenlock

Edwards / Dozzell / Downes / Rowe!?

Jackson / Harrison

Assuming the players whose contracts end leave

Where would a side like that get us? Top 2? not for me. Top 6? Perhaps. Top 12? Sure. Clearly it WON'T be that, even if we did go down ( likely ) I'm sure we'd sign 4-6 players.

A hell of a lot of work to be done. If we could somehow NOT go down this season, it will help us no ends for a long long time. Going down to me does not bare thinking about.

Hampy - what I WILL say with Lambert is he PROBABLY WON'T have a kinder set of fixtures than the following the rest of the season -

Wigan - out of form and average - H
Sheff Utd - wobbling but good win at Reading - H
QPR - having a little wobble / mid table / good chance. A
Boro - surely a write off - A
Millwall - glaring chance - H
Accrington cup - whatever, bigger fish to fry but always nice to win - A
Rotherham - See Millwall - H
Blackburn - See QPR - not bad but marooned mid table. Could be a good time to play them - A

Of course, all eight of these will be licking their lips at the prospect of playing us - that's clear.

Have to see what happens. COYB, lets have a go at mission impossible at least.
 
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Westlake33 said:
Afraid going to disagree with you here - not for the sake of it being Hampy, lets argue with him - just see it from a slightly different angle -

https://www.twtd.co.uk/ipswich-town-news/34983/town-announce-�5.2m-pre-tax-loss

https://www.transfermarkt.com/ipswich-town/kader/verein/677

Article 1- finances. This season, in the championship we lost £5.2 million. In league 1, we would lose an extra £6.5 mill roughly from tv + media ( championship check the figures, £8 mill, league 1 is nowhere near that - that's a massive loss of income.

Secondly, we would surely lose income from gate receipts - I actually think our average attendance may not be too dissimilar from this season, however tickets would surely cost less so that's more revenue we'd be down on.

Clearly next summer we'll get the Waghorn / Garner and maybe some Webster top ups, but it's still at present IF we dropped going to be a loss of OVER £10 million. That's absolutely scary.

Article 2 - shows contract expiry. So a few of these would surely go - which does help the wage bill straight off the bat. Assuming the wage bill WOULD come down, but not substantially I don't feel from the £18 million ( how in gods name is our wage bill this ) Of the out of players out of contract,,, who would we retain? Maybe a couple would be offered terms - however, how many would accept likely reduced terms?

We usually sell assets in the summer - surely time to sell Bart, however I doubt a massive fee now. Perhaps £1.5 mill.

Bart aside - who do we have who could reach good £££? Maybe due to age / promise Downes / Dozzell / Lankaster. Honestly don't know. English players go for quite a bit - so perhaps we'd sell a couple of these which could help the books be balanced nicely.

As for what we'd be left with - a squad torn ripped to pieces of confidence.....

I mean, top of my head PERHAPS a team of ( current players we have, pointless to pretend X Y Z joining )

Gerken

Emmaneul / Nsiala / Chambers / Kenlock

Edwards / Dozzell / Downes / Rowe!?

Jackson / Harrison

Assuming the players whose contracts end leave

Where would a side like that get us? Top 2? not for me. Top 6? Perhaps. Top 12? Sure. Clearly it WON'T be that, even if we did go down ( likely ) I'm sure we'd sign 4-6 players.

A hell of a lot of work to be done. If we could somehow NOT go down this season, it will help us no ends for a long long time. Going down to me does not bare thinking about.

Hampy - what I WILL say with Lambert is he PROBABLY WON'T have a kinder set of fixtures than the following the rest of the season -

Wigan - out of form and average - H
Sheff Utd - wobbling but good win at Reading - H
QPR - having a little wobble / mid table / good chance. A
Boro - surely a write off - A
Millwall - glaring chance - H
Accrington cup - whatever, bigger fish to fry but always nice to win - A
Rotherham - See Millwall - H
Blackburn - See QPR - not bad but marooned mid table. Could be a good time to play them - A

Of course, all eight of these will be licking their lips at the prospect of playing us - that's clear.

Have to see what happens. COYB, lets have a go at mission impossible at least.
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We would add loans to that side, but you’re not a million miles off. I don’t think we would run away with the league but I think we’d be in the play offs. I certainly wouldn’t expect us to struggle again.
 
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Agreed Westy, loss of finances and the amount of cost cutting we’d have to do in the event of relegation is troublesome to entertain. That potential team next season does not look good. Not to mention a fair few people will lose their jobs at the club from a backroom staff perspective. Never nice to see.

Run of fixtures do look pretty favourable right now, but this team has one win all season. Might be a bit unrealistic to expect us to put together a good run of form, but as we’ve been saying, a prolonged run of form is precisely what we’d need to avoid relegation.

Hampy, I don’t think we’d struggle in League One either. Mid table certainly the worst we should expect, even with an exodus of players as we have some good youth prospects and, say what you want about this squad, most have a good record in League One! But promotion may be out of our reach, depending who comes down with us and what League One teams don’t get promoted this year. The longer we spend in League One, the budgets will only get tighter bar a takeover and generous owner. Relegation concerns me and, to be honest, kind of scares the life out of me.
 
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Oh agreed - this ' team ' looks totally incapable of doing anything - however - MAYBE an opportunity has presented itself - we'll know a lot more after these 7 league games.

Anything less than top 6 next season would to me be a ruddy embarrassment - however - I actually think that COULD happen. Do I see us bouncing straight back? Absolutely. We'd be Sheff Utd and take a long time to get back up.

' Then Lambert is even more out of depth. Only it isn’t that, he’s getting paid and that’s the extent of his ambition. '

Christ alive he's inherited a bloody toilet squad. Granted, he's had a couple of decent fixtures when a win could have happened. I know it may be a little rich for me talk about patience due to having very little with Hurst early on - however there were worrying signs galore for me with Hurst.

Lambert's making good noises, squad harmony will have a chance, he's generally keeping it relatively settled ( though did make quite a few changes at Stoke..... )

It was quite obvious to me that Hurst was totally out of his depth and an absolute disaster for the duration.

It's not the same for me with Lambert - hard to judge until he's had a transfer window and got some of his own in.

Issue being, time, is NOT our friend.
 
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We’re also very wet as supporters. Very wet. We really get what we deserve.

Take Evans - many claim to be unhappy about him. Fine!!! Where’s the protests?!

Would Sheffield Wednesday/ Forest / Newcastle etc be so apathetic to their club if like this ??? No chance.

They’d be protesting and going mental.

Mick was a dream for Evans - would take the flack and do a good job on naff all budget.

I was of the opinion the first season post Mick would be tough- however I certainly didn’t see us in this position.
 
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Westlake33 said:
We’re also very wet as supporters. Very wet. We really get what we deserve.

Take Evans - many claim to be unhappy about him. Fine!!! Where’s the protests?!

Would Sheffield Wednesday/ Forest / Newcastle etc be so apathetic to their club if like this ??? No chance.

They’d be protesting and going mental.

Mick was a dream for Evans - would take the flack and do a good job on naff all budget.

I was of the opinion the first season post Mick would be tough- however I certainly didn’t see us in this position.
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In Facebook comments people are almost unanimously swallowing the parry line that we are playing well and everyone is happy at the same time as we look to be heading for some kind of record low points haul. George Orwell would have a field day.
 
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