Stock taking

[Citizen Kane]

Do you honestly see Leicester or West Ham being anywhere near the league winners at season end?

No, but I do potentially see them right up there challenging for the European places (at least I did until Payet got hacked down against Everton), which in all likelihood is where us and you will be too. Then throw Liverpool into that mix, same goes for Southampton, Everton, Palace - Stoke could quite easily put a run together now that they've settled.

I still think that the league is City's to lose, as long as they can keep Kompany, Silva and Aguero fit for a reasonable period of time. But in terms of top 4/5 I've seen very little from United or obviously Chelsea to worry me. I think Arsenal would walk away with 2nd spot if they could keep their players fit, but they can't.

I don't think you can argue that, largely as a result of TV money and the crapness of some of the traditional big guns, this league gets tighter every year. A few years ago, it would've been unthinkable to see the likes of West Ham or WBA drop £25m net spend in a single transfer window. I mean they had higher net spends than us and you combined! If that money is invested wisely, which in many cases it seems to have been, there is no reason why 'small' teams cannot rapidly destroy the stereotype that they 'can't achieve much' and seriously challenge up there with the big boys who for too long have simply expected to turn up at games for the opposition to roll over and have their tummy tickled (cf. WBA v Arsenal, 21/11/15).

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

In the case of Leicester as league leaders after a third of the season you cannot dismiss them. I haven't seen enough of them to make an assessment but after 13 games it is surely a bit more than a fluke.

Especially as their manager is famous for his squad rotation and he's been doing a fair bit of it.
He left Mahrez out of some games and still got results, FFS. I can't imagine many people doing that.
Ulloa and Okazaki scoring is a big boost for them and they've still got players like Inler and Kramaric in reserve, which is amazing for a club in their position.

I don't think that Leicester will be making a serious title challenge this season and can see them ending up like Southampton in the last campaign.
That's a fantastic first season for Ranieri though, so I wouldn't write them off for a European place.

 

[The RDBD]

Getting back to it ...

The key points are that for this stage of the season, Spurs are performing in a
manner rarely seen (if ever) regarding GD, GA etc.

If it continues over the season, the GD will be in the 30s and the GA too.
These are two recurring traits of the teams that repeatedly get the CL slots.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

10 factors IMHO:

1. Alderweireld was an excellent signing.
2. Kane has hit a purple patch after a drought.
3. Dier, Alli and Dembele might not have been playing together had Bentaleb, Mason and Chadli stayed fit
4. The team has got used to playing a high pressing game
5. In view of 4, there appears to be greater licence and confidence to move the ball more quickly and push forward when in possession
6. The defence are playing regularly together as a unit
7. There is an emphasis on youth - which has brought greater energy
8. Walker is still making gaffes, but not as many
9. The manager appears to have been able to recruit players he wants
10. The defence is protected by a genuinely defensive midfielder

Now it's all about maintaining form, fitness, avoiding too many enforced or unenforced changes, coping with EL commitments etc.

A good team is always greater than the sum of its parts - as Leicester are also proving.

It's too early to predict where teams will finish - as all the regular top six to eight sides have looked equally great and rubbish at various times- but it looks to be a very open league with no outstanding candidate for the title and with 8 or more teams having genuine top 4 claims

I don't get this one. It's just a mixture of hindsight and assumption. Had Hazard been injured all season and Chelsea were in the same position they are now, I'm sure everyone would be talking about how much Chelsea miss him, how his absence has been a major part of Chelsea's decline. As it is, he has played and made no difference whatsoever.

Would Dier, Alli and Dembele be playing if it weren't for those injuries? Who knows, and who knows if Mason, Bentaleb and Chadli might be doing even better. They were important members of the side last season. Mason in particular, we visibly improve when he's on the pitch. And so what if they didn't perform just as well, Pochettino had already dropped Bentaleb once after starting the season poorly. Who would say he wouldn't have acted quickly and dropped all of them when others were doing better?

Everyone who has played regularly lately has improved along with the team. It's easy to play well when everyone else is playing well. Just look at Hazard and Costa, unstoppable when Chelsea were racing away with the league and near useless since.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

^ I didn't comment on how it had come about, YV, just that those three playing reguarly in midfield had been a factor in your upturn in form.

As a comment though, I think it's improbable Alli would have played as many games had others been available.Sometimes players get their chance in unlikely circumstances and take it with both hands. Alli and Dier clearly have. But I doubt anyone would have expected these two rookies to be the preferred central midfield partnership at the start of the season.

In the case of Leicester as league leaders after a third of the season you cannot dismiss them. I haven't seen enough of them to make an assessment but after 13 games it is surely a bit more than a fluke.

50 points from their last 22 PL games suggests it's no flash in the pan.

But they do play Utd ,City and Chelsea (h) and Liverpool, Everton, Swansea (a) in their six games remaining this year, which will be a big test.

 

[Spurlock]

Do you honestly see Leicester or West Ham being anywhere near the league winners at season end?

Top 4 snobbery. The usual suspects arent as good as they think they are.

 

[cini65]

Top 4 snobbery. The usual suspects arent as good as they think they are.

But 'they' keep finishing top four. When was the last time a team other than Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Chelsea or City finished less than 10 points off the top of the league?

I also don't agree 'they' aren't as good as 'they' think 'they' are. 'They'd' have to think 'they' were amazing for that to be true. Do any of the top four (or the fans of the top four) really see themselves as elite on the world stage? Aside from the deluded few fans that everyone knows on here, are there any that fans or clubs that think that? The CL quite clearly shows otherwise.

But that doesn't mean these clubs aren't head and shoulders above the second tier premier league teams.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

But I can see through it in five seconds. If a manager said that sort of gumph to me it would mean nothing, because I know the same thing would apply to several other teams. So no, I don't agree it would work as motivation, unless you were a moron.

You don't get it and again with the logical. It's about target setting, challenging the players inner drive and ambition. Before most Derbies someone from one side usually says something stupid. This time Bilic said he wouldn't let his dog support Spurs. I bet that went into the management build-up. It's irrelevant. It's a cliche. Used correctly it works.

They've gone 12 unbeaten. They're being lauded from all sides. The coaches will know that they need to be challenged to bring more to each performance keep them going for it. It doesn't matter what you use provided you are challenging their professional pride and personal and collective drive. If tis side had a history of near misses you could use that. Currently, I'd point them at Leicester and challenge them to overtake them and go top. If Leicester falter then find something, anything else that keeps them looking forward. Ranieri wasn't happy with amazing results and kept challenging the team to produce clean sheets. It gets brought up in every interview. He used the pizza thing in the press to get under his players skins.It's ridiculous but it unites them in a challenge when they might already be producing miracles.

Fergie would point a title winning side at previous teams who had won back to back titles - "You've done nothing until you win it again this year" or "In 1999 we won the triple, when you do that then you've achieved something really great." Cloughie would use his own goal scoring records to goad his strikers. Bill Nick used the Double side to challenge his later teams. Pizza is not logical but it can motivational.

 

[Spurlock]

But 'they' keep finishing top four. When was the last time a team other than Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Chelsea or City finished less than 10 points off the top of the league?

I also don't agree 'they' aren't as good as 'they' think 'they' are. 'They'd' have to think 'they' were amazing for that to be true. Do any of the top four (or the fans of the top four) really see themselves as elite on the world stage? Aside from the deluded few fans that everyone knows on here, are there any that fans or clubs that think that? The CL quite clearly shows otherwise.

But that doesn't mean these clubs aren't head and shoulders above the second tier premier league teams.

That gap is closing..even though the fans of the usual suspects might not see it.

 

[cini65]

That gap is closing..even though the fans of the usual suspects might not see it.

Subjective. I can just as easily say that the fans of the non-usual suspects want the gap to close and hope that it is even if they might not really be seeing it.

 

[Spurf]

Subjective. I can just as easily say that the fans of the non-usual suspects want the gap to close and hope that it is even if they might not really be seeing it.

Come on cin most of what we all write is subjective. Football matches are often won on purely subjective grounds.

Look at the top ten and the points scored that should tell you that the whole league is much closer now. It's simple really the huge sky money available to PL teams is closing that gap.

 

[Citizen Kane]

Come on cin most of what we all write is subjective. Football matches are often won on purely subjective grounds.

Look at the top ten and the points scored that should tell you that the whole league is much closer now. It's simple really the huge sky money available to PL teams is closing that gap.

This together with the somewhat bizarre reality where the 'elite' PL teams are getting worse in inverse proportion to the amount of money flowing into the league.

 

[Citizen Kane]

And then Palace go and lose at home to Sunderland so what the f*** do we know?!

 

[Dier Hard]

To grade our season so far, I'd say A-.

We look a great team, the potential continues to shine through while current ability is also at a high, we look a tough team to score against while also being dangerous on the attack, the midfield is dominating everyone in their path, the manager is learning more and more just like our young squad and the vibe around the place seems to be extremely positive.

Only criticism which is why I graded A- and not A/ A+ is from earlier in the season where we didn't kill off teams, had we done that, we'd be sitting second or top.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

^ I didn't comment on how it had come about, YV, just that those three playing reguarly in midfield had been a factor in your upturn in form.

As a comment though, I think it's improbable Alli would have played as many games had others been available.Sometimes players get their chance in unlikely circumstances and take it with both hands. Alli and Dier clearly have. But I doubt anyone would have expected these two rookies to be the preferred central midfield partnership at the start of the season.

Amongst other things I was making the point that those that weren't playing were still very capable of playing to a similar standard.

As for Dier, his real break was us not being able to sign Kouyate or Wanyama but he was being groomed for midfieldall summer. Although I can see why not being able central midfielder might seem unlikely to a United fan, you signed about 20 over the summer Alli, similarly may have benefited but he's still the same player that was given a chance to show his worth against Real Madrid in preseason so I don't think Pochettino is as surprised as the rest of us are.

If you think about it plenty of our players owe luck at some level or another for their chances in the first team. Dembele's return to the side coincided with Dier's suspension. Eriksen probably wouldn't even be here had Willian not backed out at the last minute, Mason would have probably been more peripheral had we signed Schneiderlin before he broke into the side, and Kane owes a lot of his game time to the Sulk and Soldado not being able to do it on a cold night in Stoke(or anywhere outside Spain).

Perhaps we'd be speaking of Wimmer in the same light had Jan or Toby not been able to play every league match so far.

I just think it's not giving us enough credit if you put it down to luck. We have a lot stronger squad than most people, including our own fans, gave us credit for at the start of the season. I think our main slice of luck has been having Kane injury-free so far.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Dier's had a lot of things go his way: last summer he was expected to be behind Vertonghen, Fazio, Kaboul and possibly Chiriches in the pecking order - but due to injuries, suspensions and players being rested after the World Cup he played our first couple of league games and made an instant impact, and with Kaboul talking himself out the door, by the second half of the season he was regularly starting games alongside Verts.

Rose also had a couple of strokes of luck in his favour: first it was BAE falling out with AVB and losing his space in the squad, secondly actually lasting until Poch took over was a stroke of luck given how utterly shambolic his performances could be during the AVB/Sherwood era. On the subject of that era, Bentaleb got his break due to Sandro's mounting injury problems...as well as Sherwood's foolish idea that midfielders shouldn't know what defending is.

In a lot of ways, we should be thankful to the Kaboul Cabal - Adebayor, Kaboul and Capoue talking themselves out of the team gave opportunities to Kane, Dier and Mason, all of whom made the most out of it.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Subjective. I can just as easily say that the fans of the non-usual suspects want the gap to close and hope that it is even if they might not really be seeing it.

I agree with this in terms of Leicester and clubs like them who have a promising start only to fall just short or completely drop away.

One of these days it's bound to come off because despite the odds being against them, with a team rolling the dice each year eventually one's going to get sixes. I wouldn't expect it to last more than a season though. Even Liverpool couldn't keep hold of their best player after challenging for the title, a side that's normally expected to finish mid-table won't be able to fend off interest even if they're in the Champions League. The only way to keep a player out of the clutches of big money clubs is if the player really wants to stay and that's rare. CL football is no more than an excuse for most players, they want to earn as much as they can and sides regularly in the CL just happen to be best placed to offer that.

We're a little different though, we're established as next best after the top 4 and if one of the top 4 has a bad season, there's always a chance we'll capitalise. Not that we're immune to losing our best players but it helps that one of them is very vocal in his wish to stay. We're certainly at a disadvantage to the big money clubs in terms of staying in the top 4 even if we do get there but we do have one potentially very significant long term advantage over those clubs. The academy.

If it turns out all the recent success we've had in bringing academy players through is a flash in the pan then obviously this won't be the case. However if we can continue bringing through a star like Kane every few years, back it up with good players like Mason, Bentaleb, Townsend, and cement it with a couple of good value transfers each year(like Dier, Alli, Eriksen, Alderweireld) then suddenly the £100mill or so that the money clubs spend more than us becomes less significant. With the new stadium on it's way the timing could be perfect as it will help us pay the kind of wages to keep our best players just as a number of them will be starting to reach the level where they can get that kind of money elsewhere.

 

[Boss]

I remember Pochettino's team at saints, as that season I predicted they would be the surprise package of the year. First 11 games they lost 1 game and sat around 3rd at one point. Having a look at their results from that year as a reminder, they lost 6 out of the following 9 games (1 win in 9) and fell away , before recovering to similar form of the first 11 games. Their form towards the end of the season was mixed and that is how I expect Leicester's season to pan out.

Leicester City have Utd, Swansea, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool and City as their next 6 fixtures. They could go from top of the form table to bottom of the form table, thats how this season is developing, one of the most unpredictable and crazy premier league seasons we have seen.

Or Leicester could tank Utd this weekend and be on course for the champions league, which if that happens, would be refreshing for the game, even if we would struggle to deal with the embarrassment of losing out to Leicester City.

 

[Hoddle is a god]

We are looking like a good team, there is no doubt about it. We are not reliant on merely one or two players, as we have been in other seasons. It's the main reason, for me, why we have a good chance for 4th. The only real rival we have for 5th is 'Pool, but Klipperty has got his work cut out, still.

 

[SpursDisciple]

We are looking like a good team, there is no doubt about it. We are not reliant on merely one or two players, as we have been in other seasons. It's the main reason, for me, why we have a good chance for 4th. The only real rival we have for 5th is 'Pool, but Klipperty has got his work cut out, still.

I don't think Man Utd look very strong either, nor, at the moment anyway, do City.