Famous....Bar that one renewal which had STS, Conduit and RVW the race is always weaker than the Champion Stakes. The Champion Stakes is not a weak race, it's the strongest 10f race in Europe, and always has been
The strongest 10f race in Europe and always has been?! Hardly think that's been borne out in recent years. Comparing Eclipse winners (http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?search_bar=stakes&query_type=stakes&field=view&id=747) to Champion Stakes winners (http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?search_bar=stakes&query_type=stakes&field=view&id=628) over the last decade or so, I'd say the Eclipse wins out, though not by a huge margin.
Look at the list of irish Champion Stakes winners in recent years compared to the annual Donkey Derby at newmarket as well. The only horse of note to have won the English version in recent years is New Approach and he is one of the worst Derby winners in recent years.
Not to re-ignite the whole New Approach thing, but he's definitely not one of the worst Derby winners in recent years.
As a new recruit to racing forums I've neevr had the debate about New Approacvh,. My opinion is he was not a very good Derby winner at all but hey, just like embarassing little social problems, everyone has an opinion
If you think New Approach wasn't very good at all god knows what you think of, say, Kris Kin or at least half the winners in the 90s. And saying 'everyone has an opinion' is just a meaningless platitude, if we all took that approach, there'd never be any debating!
Chippy Minton....Your last sentence just ruined any credibility you had. New Approach was a fantastic racehorse, and was the first Champion 2yo to win the Derby since Nijinsky. He won G1s ranging from 7 to 12f, Proving tremendous versatility, he was then crowned champion 3yo, in a generation that included Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator. His Derby win was tremendous, he was last coming round tatenhan corner, having pulled like a train for most of the race, yet he still had the gears to fly home overtaking the whole field. His Champion Stakes win was arguably the best performance ever in that race, smashing the track record, and beating Twice Over by 6 lenghs, and we all know how good Twice Over is at Newmarket, and he has won the next 2 renewals of the Champion stakes. On the Champion stakes being weaker than the eclipse, the Champion Stakes is the race were the Champion 10f horse is crowned in the UK, the same as the King Heorge crowns the champion 12f horse, and the QE2 crowns the champion miler, the Eclipse is just another G1, hence why the prize fund is so much less
'the Champion Stakes is the race were the Champion 10f horse WAS crowned in the UK' - I've fixed that sentence, do you really think many of the recent winners were the champion 10f horses for that year? You can't say any one race crowns the champion horse for any distance, it depends on which horses line up in any particular race in any particular year. As for the prize fund, what does that have to do with the quality of a race? The Breeder's Cup has a huge prize fund but you always belittle that meeting!
No I belittle American turf racing in general, it's dire Its like saying David Beckham is the best player in world football because he gets paid a million a week to play in America, the yanks are a joke. We are talking about 2 G1s in the same country, and the Champion Stakes is the number 1 10f race in the UK, and is the race that defines the champion 10f horse, regardless of which horses turn up
"And saying 'everyone has an opinion' is just a meaningless platitude, if we all took that approach, there'd never be any debating! " It's not a meaningless platitude at all. There is a difference between fact and opinion and that was the point I was making. You don't think New approach was an overhyped carthorse who got lucky because he ran against trees - I do. Neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong as this is just personal perception. Beating horses of the caibre of Dr Freemantle and tartan bearer is hardly anything to write home about. He then got his backside handed to him on a plate by such luminaries as Phoenix tower.....The champion stakes wins were emabrassing - if I owned a horse who won 2 group 1s by beating the likes of Traffic guard i would change my name and pretend I had nothing to do with it. King Shergar I'm not on here to gain credibility. i'm here to libel jockeys, trainers and owners that i don't like, belittle horses that have lost me money either because I backed them and they ran like hairy goats or because I didn't back them when clearly I should have done and pick meaningless arguments with invisible people on an internet forum in order to pass the time. I'm never likely to meet you so i really don't care whether you feel i have any credibility or not - and I would very much hope that the feeling is mutual..
Traffic Guard was beaten 13 lenghs in the Champion Stakes, when New Approach smashed the track record, hardly an embaressing G1 performance
In my opinion the premier 10f contest in UK or Ireland is the Irish Champion Stakes. As noted earlier the English version inevitably ends up badly diluted due to it's relative proximity to Arc, plus the time of year. Whereas the Irish Champion Stakes acts as a perfect race for trainers wanting to get a run into their charge before Longchamp. The roll of honours in last the ten years includes Giants Causeway, High Chaparral, New Approach and the best of recent years Sea the Stars. Not a bad line up! Even the vanquished includes Falbrav, Hawk Wing and Galileo. Its pretty clear to me that this is the best 10f race in UK/Ireland.
Yes Ron, we really need SA to liven up this New Approach debate! For my money he is one of the better Derby winners in recent years but I appreciate the horse is not everyone's cup of tea - a bit too quirky for some I suppose. Generally I would agree that the standing of the Champion has reduced in recent years. It is a great shame as there were some great winners in the 70s/80s. I often used to go to the Charisma meeting at Kempton in the 80s and used to love watching the Champion and Ceserewich in the bar through increasingly hazy vision. Cauthen's win in the 1983 Champion on Cormorant Wood is one of my favourite riding performances of all time.
Hallelujah someone talking sense.The Eclipse used to be the premier race in the 80,s but some reason the quality of horses winning the race has degraded in the past 20 years.Still better quality than the English Champion though.
I'd argue that the Juddmonte International is usually a stronger race than the Irish Champion, we had Dylan Thomas v Authorised, New Approach vs Duke Of Marmalade, Sea The Stars ran in it, and last year we had Byword, Twice Over, Rip Van Winkle and Dick Turpin! Though the Newmarket Champion Stakes is the 10f championship decider, whatever way anyone wants to look at it , and if horses would rather go to France for the Arc, more fool them, did anyone see the disaster that was last years Arc, Longchamp is probably the most unfair 12f in the whole of Europe
Shergar, you are in a minority of 1 when it comes to thinking the Champion Stakes proves who is a championship horse simply by virtue of what it is. The Arc is an infinitely better race these days.
Reading this debate makes me think the UK Pattern Organisers have been totally outmanoeuvred by their foreign chums.
Got to agree with Beef or Salmon and Dancing Brave - the Irish Champion Stakes has been the best 10 furlong race for a few years now. There was a blip in 2008 but other than that the winners have been excellent for some time.
