Match Day Thread Southampton vs Norwich City.

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Cromercanary, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. lisboncanary

    lisboncanary Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to deflect the thread back onto the gay issue again, but I feel I have to point some truths out to Duncan.

    Duncan, it was you who introduced sexuality into this discussion, not some politically correct liberal cabal. Everyone was discussing the defeat at Southampton and you chose to start ranting about rainbow armbands and how children are being taught about 'bum sex'. I am a gay man, but I have never felt any need to make this public on this website because it is totally irrelevant. Or it was, before you made it relevant.

    You could simply have said that you don't think sport should get involved with social issues and left it at that, and broadly speaking I would have agreed with you. But you went on for several paragraphs about gays, including a couple of gratuitous references to anal sex. If anyone has an issue about gay sex, Duncan, it is you.

    I am not asking you to 'celebrate' my sexuality (to use your word from an earlier post). But I won't take crap either. I am an old man and I have spent my life fighting people like you and your unthinking homophobia, and I have learned that homophobes are the people with the problem, not gays. There are people in the world who are different from you. They may be black not white, female not male, French not English, Muslim or atheist not Christian, gay not straight. Accept that in a deep sense and not just come out with this crap about you're not prejudiced because we are all prejudiced because we all tend to live in our own bubble. To my mind, respecting the difference between ourselves and other people is something that separates an adult from a child.

    Now let's all back to discussing the Yellows and how the hell we are going to avoid relegation.
     
    #81
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  2. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    A What!? Are you using a thesaurus, Robbie?
     
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  3. ncgandy

    ncgandy Well-Known Member

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    It's a lovely little place, with a nice beach and some swish restaurants. <ok>
     
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  4. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    <laugh> Not necessary in this case. My choice of the word arose from a reflection that reading threads on here bears no little similarity to the study of medieval manuscripts ..........
     
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  5. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    So, you're taking this thread back to the gay issue, eh?
     
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  6. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    That made me laugh! :emoticon-0102-bigsm
     
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  7. Farked19

    Farked19 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't in my post implying that Pukki failing to score for several games was in any way his fault. I agree that it was a lack of service providing him opportunities. His continuation of form for Finland shows this.

    On the gay issue I would just say the niggle always seems to be in one direction with discrimination against people on account of choices they make in their private lives still being quite common on sites such as these.
     
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  8. bengalurucanary

    bengalurucanary Well-Known Member

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    So lets take the Bournemouths and the burnleys and the sheffields as a comparison to us.

    My assumption is that they surely arent self financing, as the main sources of being so for clubs in the premier league seem to be ticket sales and merchandising. With smaller stadiums and less of a global brand these clubs cant be making much surely?

    Now obviously TV is the real big deal, but when clubs are spending 60 to 80 of their total income on wages alone, surely that doesnt leave much money to buy more players?

    I looked at burnleys finances and it seems they made a profit last year, but this was seemingly due to selling players.

    And finally a question for folk. Would you rather we spend 25 million on players in January, or that 25 million was allocated and ear marked to greatly improve capacity of CR, say to 35000 approx?
     
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  9. Farked19

    Farked19 Well-Known Member

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    If 25 million buys 10,000 extra seats it's a no brainer anyway in financial terms 230,000 extra tickets at a Championship level or 190,000 in the Premiership would generate around £6 million a year in revenue. Where can you get 24% return on capital? Even borrowing the money would be a goof deal, you could repay the debt in four seasons.
     
    #89
  10. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    A not unreasonable gamble could be anything upto £20m maybe more depending on willingness to sell players who will very likely attract interest. I do not know Webber's budget he has in mind but that could very well have been spent in the summer. Clearly 1 £20m player would not be the answer as the wages would be prohibitive and could cause squad disharmony. But in the spirit of continuous improvement 2 or 3 £4-8m players again carefully scouted by Webber et al to fit our strategy (Attitude, resale, aptitude for Farkeball) could have almost certaintly improved our chances of staying up or even coming up again. (I'm thinking some second division or low end first division Germans)
    As an example, Godfrey is already being touted in a potential bidding war for £25m by North London's big boys. It's not that we should want to sell or even be in a position to necessitate selling but between the PL money, parachute payments and resale value of a number of our players, some of whom will doubtless want to stay in the PL, with or without us.
    I.e. is it truly a gamble if you know that the outlay can be comfortably covered? And is it more of a gamble to go as you were when you likely have a list of players that could improve you sufficiently to make staying up significantly more likely? (I know all transfers are gambles and may all fail, but not buying/loaning anyone who has improved the starting XI is surely as bigger one?)

    Your observation about other clubs spending is interesting: Burnley spent as follows (Source Soccerbase):

    12/13 Champ: £0 spend £0 profit/loss after sales
    13/14 Champ: £0 spend +£4m
    14/15 PL: £5.5m spend -£2m
    15/16 Champ: £15.05m spend - £15.05m
    16/17 PL: £31.5m spend - £31.5m
    17/18 PL: £33m spend +£3.5m
    18/19 PL: £29.5m spend - £29.5m

    City
    10/11 Champ: £5.3m spend - £5.3
    11/12 PL: £5.75m spend - £5.75
    12/13 PL: £4.3m spend £4.3m
    13/14 PL: £19.2m spend -£15.85m
    14/15 Champ: £2.7m spend +£12.86m
    15/16 PL: £30.1m spend - £9.6m
    16/17 Champ: £10.5m spend + £9m Definitely some errors on this site! Zimmermann and Vrancic did not arrive yet! Most others have looked broadly speaking correct.
    17/18 Champ: £3.7m spend +£41.8m
    18/19 Champ: £1.625m spend - £1.625m
    19/20 PL: £1.1 spend - £1.1m

    I take your point about differing readiness, but even their £5.5m net £2m spend beats our £1.1m, but will we be seeing a net spend of £15m especially after sales to ensure our return? I don't have time currently to compare it with the other established teams mentioned but I'll wager most had bigger spends each time they got promoted.
    One thing it does highlight is the limitations in our owners. Our biggest net spend came at the start of our 3rd consecutive season in the PL and was only £15.85m. Burnley on the other hand spent nearly that upon relegation and have sepnt about £30m each season since, Keane's sale to Everton yielding a pprofit in that one year.
    So could stretching ourselves within reason help, especially now we have better people running the football side? For me yes.

    Bah!
     
    #90

  11. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    I think a balance should be struck. Firstly do we think we can turn things around enough to stay up come January? If not then not to much point trying to buying players, as none that will truly improve us will come just to be relegated. Good players for development and to get half a season of Farke footy under their belt of course would still be a good idea.

    Had you asked at the begining of the season I would have said £20m on players, £5m towards the stadium improvement fund, this can then be increased with each PL season. If improving in January is tough and value cannot be gained, I would keep the funds as a bounceback fund, between that and sales, I would hope we could put together a very competitve side.
    Gate receipts are peanuts next to PL money, so the squad should always be the focus. The ongoing revenue needs to be priced against the reduced revenue during construction and the disruption to fans for a season or more, we don't have a wembley in our back yard to play in during construction!

    Bah!
     
    #91
  12. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that we would go up to 35,000 capacity in one go, so perhaps a more modest sum to get to 30,000. If we can raise a £6m bond for improving Colney, then surely we could raise say £10m for expanding to 30,000 and it needn't interfere with recruitment planning. I'm against gambling on expensive players to try to stay up, but a CB and perhaps another player on loan would be sensible, as well as perhaps a young player or two with potential - a cut down version of both options then.
     
    #92
  13. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    Webber has already lamented the route Alex Neil went down to try and achieve
    this aim - it forced his hand in having to sell Maddison, after all <doh>
    Plus, if we can't beat fellow bottom half clubs, (Watford, Saints, Villa,
    Wet Sham, Brighton, Bournemouth) then it's just pouring money away needlessly.
    If we are two years ahead of DF's plan, as we were with McNally's all those years ago,
    then all is not doom and gloom - even if this season looks like being so.
     
    #93
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  14. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Bournemouth are owned by a wealthy Russian, who basically funded their rise to the EPL rather than their survival in it. Their "speculative" expenditure was in the Championship, a fact which will come back to bite them if and when they are relegated. Burnley are much like us, and as you say, rely on canny recruitment and player sales to supplement TV income. They are well run, don't over-spend and hence don't face financial meltdown in the event of relegation. Sheffield likewise, though now that the ownership spat has been resolved in favour of the Saudi Prince Abdullah, putting him in sole control, it remains to be seen whether the approach they have followed so far is jettisoned and a more aggressive financial strategy adopted.
     
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  15. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    The most interesting figures there are Burnley's four years from 12/13 to 15/16. The 12/13 and 13/14 figures show that they weren't facing anything like the financial meltdown that was facing Webber when he joined City; they broke even in that first year, and made, for them and similar Championship clubs at the time, a more than decent profit from player sales in that second year. Having, just like us, nevertheless won promotion with a squad far from ideally equipped to survive, the one thing they didn't do in 14/15 was spend significant amounts of money "speculatively" in a (failed) gamble to survive. They sensibly conserved such TV money as remained unspent on EPL wages, EPL-grade ground improvements, etc., in order to retain players and continue strengthening, aiming at an immediate return with a squad more fit for purpose to survive. If they, despite their far healthier financial starting position, saw that as the sound strategy to adopt, I think we are well-advised to follow their example, as Webber, thankfully, appears to be doing.
     
    #95
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  16. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Re. the rumoured Arsenal interest in Godfrey, I would doubt there is very much, if anything, in it. Arsenal need two CBs who can come straight into their starting eleven and improve them dramatically. They don't need a relative novice whose set-piece defending is currently no better than any of the CBs Arsenal have already got. Godfrey is currently well below the quality needed to be a first choice CB at a top six club. Spurs may have the luxury of allowing him time to develop, Arsenal do not.
     
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  17. ncgandy

    ncgandy Well-Known Member

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    Liked this bit of info about Burnley:

    'Every director at the club is locally born, a Claret supporter and none of them are getting paid. As of 2019–20, the club is debt-free'.
     
    #97
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  18. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot to like about Burnley gandy ........ except the style of football. They have assumed the mantle of Stoke, even down to the old chestnut about whether this or that foreign import is likely to perform "on a cold, wet, windy night at the Britannia (for which now read Turf Moor)" <laugh>
     
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  19. canary on the weald

    canary on the weald Active Member

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    I did not like to admit I didn't know what a lacuna was!!
     
    #99
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  20. canary on the weald

    canary on the weald Active Member

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    If spending 25 mil on players kept us in the p.l,I would suggest financially, that is the way to go,although I admit carrow road needs to be expanded, at least to 30,000
     
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